Montreal Bans All Pit Bulls

[Illusion]

Originally Posted by CrunchyCripple

Illusion,

That's like asking why anyone would have a male human being in their life.

Do you have any idea how many male human beings harm, maim and kill others EVERY SINGLE DAY?

It makes your Pit Bull Statistics look like nothing.

If you tried this statistical data with human males, instead of dogs - people would laugh in your face. Even though the news has multiple daily reports on human male violent crime.

I'm not sure how this is relevant to the topic, but you are absolutely right. I read somewhere that in Chicago someone gets shot on average of every 2 hours or something like that. We also have a place called prison for murderers.

You're comparing the value of human males to pit bulls. Think about what you said there for a second. I've said that certain types of breeds attract idiots. Thank you for proving my point. Next question.

Edit: Instead of evading the facts and coming up with weak analogies, I would have much more respect for you if you cared about the destruction the breed is responsible for.

Dangerous dogs are a lot like owning a gun, you don’t leave it around unattended where kids can find it. Owners have to recognize their responsibilities, and those who don’t should have their dogs taken away for public safety.

[CrunchyCripple]

I agree with your last paragraph.
At this point in time, people are only declared too stupid/irresponsible AFTER the dog has gone too far and hurt/killed someone.

That person is responsible for screwing up the animal AND multiple people's lives. The dog dies, the guilty party may pay with fines and jail time, but isn't usually banned from dog ownership, nor required to learn about them. Though a specific judge may say different.

Education is of no importance in the legal equation, which truly sucks.

[Desensitisation]

Originally Posted by lesslis2015

I like "teaching" a behaviour using positive rewards.....depends on dog, could be treat, toy or a pat on head. I will not correct a dog for a behaviour it never learned. Not fair imo. Not into yank and crank on collar for submission and obedience when teaching new things. I will collar correct for refocus or safety reasons.
Forming wanted behaviors positively could be a slower process but think it builds a much more trusting human/dog relationship. I personally have never seen a "stubborn" dog. Maybe a confused and not real clear on what you want dog, but not stubborn or intentional. Most really do just want to please. I don't disregard or ban any tool in the toolbox of training a dog. So much depends on the dog in front of you.

With all dogs, I always start with positive only training. This is an absolute must for a starting point, simply because you DO have to build trust with the animal; if you start with punishment straight off the bat, you're going to destroy the relationship, fast. Most puppies, younger dogs, those dogs willing to learn? You may never need to punish them, ever, if you catch them at the right time in training.

But I've handled dozens of rescues, mostly of head-strong, stubborn, difficult dogs, many of which have never had boundaries established for them. Now most of them, yes, with positive training alone, you can get them to change their behaviour... but that doesn't mean you've achieved an important goal in preventing the dog from doing something you don't want, by establishing some form of boundary against that unwanted behaviour.

Likewise with certain breeds of dog that are, by their genetic predisposition, mouthy. Shepherds, cattledogs, terriers... they want to use their mouths. And whilst you can redirect that drive into appropriate behaviour by having things they can chew on, and encourage them to do so, at a young age it is critical that you also dissuade them from biting the wrong thing. It doesn't take beating the dog to death, but it does take punishment of some type to establish a boundary that they are wary of crossing; 99% of the time, a sharp, loud bellow that startles them out of their behaviour is more than enough. On rare occasion, physical correction. With those dogs, expecting that unwanted behaviour to extinguish through lack of reward will never happen, because it's part of their core drive.

The BIG key to this type of training is that you then must IMMEDIATELY follow with a direction that results in a positive reinforcement for the dog, so they know what to do instead, and don't just get stressed out from the punishment; pup bites hand, gets verbally corrected first, if they release, ask them to sit, reward for sit. Soon enough they sit instead of biting. If they don't release the bite with verbal correction, then choker usage or any other physical technique that is just enough to break the bite is used, then issue another command, reward that instead.

The real challenge is assessing every dog as an individual, measuring their core personality to get a feel of how anxious or tenacious they are, and tailoring the training appropriately. Use punishment on an anxious dog, and you'll fuck it up in no time. Use no punishment on a stubborn gregarious dog that has naturally aggressive tendencies not rooted in anxiety, and you'll have a dog that lacks boundaries.

[lesslis2015]

^^^^^^
Great post!

[lesslis2015]

Desense, spot on post, think shows like dog whisperer confuse some pet owners tho. He is a rehab guy and does well with dogs already used to life without boundries, but many watch and think his methods should start from puppyhood. Honestly, not a lot of experience with adult dogs that need a cattleprod and just don't enjoy working a dog like that. Respect those that can at least make life livable for one. I enjoy dog sport competitions and it does require bitework so having a stable well-bred dog is as important has the training itself.

[Spiritual]

My dog is a staffy lab cross, sweetest thing ever. I know lots of people around with staffies, they are mostly good dogs. Huskies are mean fuckers, ofc they will never ban those because they are pretty and don't have the stigma of a "low class" dog.

[Desensitisation]

Originally Posted by lesslis2015

Desense, spot on post, think shows like dog whisperer confuse some pet owners tho. He is a rehab guy and does well with dogs already used to life without boundries, but many watch and think his methods should start from puppyhood. Honestly, not a lot of experience with adult dogs that need a cattleprod and just don't enjoy working a dog like that. Respect those that can at least make life livable for one. I enjoy dog sport competitions and it does require bitework so having a stable well-bred dog is as important has the training itself.

Cesar Milan isn't the greatest behaviourist when it comes to dogs, unfortunately, though it seems he is getting better. He's made a couple of spectacular fuck-ups with using the wrong technique on the wrong dog at the wrong time, and paid the price for it, but at he's willing to learn from his mistakes for what I've seen. At least he's taking on those dogs others would sooner give up on.

But yes, I regularly get people using techniques of his, and screwing up their dogs as a result of it because they lack the knowledge to know when it's the right time to use it, and when it's not.

Finally, I'M always learning, and never would claim to be able to help ANY dog. There's always something you'll not have experienced before, or an animal with an issue or combination of issues that you won't be sure how to handle, and that's why I always work in co-operation with a handful of other behaviourists and trainers. Some dogs hate men, and need a female trainer, or vice-versa, at least to begin with.

[Illusion]

Originally Posted by Desensitisation

Cesar Milan isn't the greatest behaviourist when it comes to dogs, unfortunately, though it seems he is getting better. He's made a couple of spectacular fuck-ups with using the wrong technique on the wrong dog at the wrong time, and paid the price for it, but at he's willing to learn from his mistakes for what I've seen. At least he's taking on those dogs others would sooner give up on.

But yes, I regularly get people using techniques of his, and screwing up their dogs as a result of it because they lack the knowledge to know when it's the right time to use it, and when it's not.

Finally, I'M always learning, and never would claim to be able to help ANY dog. There's always something you'll not have experienced before, or an animal with an issue or combination of issues that you won't be sure how to handle, and that's why I always work in co-operation with a handful of other behaviourists and trainers. Some dogs hate men, and need a female trainer, or vice-versa, at least to begin with.

I just wanted to thank you for taking your time and dropping some knowledge in here. You said you were a dog behavioral trainer and you had trained many different breeds? I was hoping you could enlighten us about Pit bull temperament.

We already talked about irresponsible ownership. When I look at the stats, Pits were responsible for 82% of dog attacks resulting in death in 2015 and the breed makes up less than 7% of the total dog population in the U.S. That's an alarming stat that tells me there's more to it than irresponsible owners.

From my understanding every domesticated dog can be traced back to wild gray wolves from hundreds of years of selective breeding. Through selective breeding, breeders were able to produce the type of dog they wanted. Some produced dogs for work, others for show and some for fighting.

Pit bulls are basically a bull dog/terrier mix used for bull baiting and then later for dogfighting in the 1800s. Pit bull apologists love to ignore the dog's aggressive genetic traits and blame everything on environmental issues. Can you explain some of these behavioral traits that are unique to the breed.

Thanks in advance.

[Oswald2001]

All the talk of animal training and conditioning is just STRAW MAN deflection.

The real problem animals are the owners.

The owners are UP TO NO GOOD and they use pit bulls or whatever else at hand to create the HAVOC and CHAOS that they crave.

Unless the root of the problem is addressed, any action taken is as useless as the clueless action taker.

Just impotent 'feel good' delusional nonsense.

[Illusion]

Originally Posted by Oswald2001

All the talk of animal training and conditioning is just STRAW MAN deflection.

The real problem animals are the owners.

The owners are UP TO NO GOOD and they use pit bulls or whatever else at hand to create the HAVOC and CHAOS that they crave.

Unless he root of the problem is addressed, any action taken is as useless as the clueless action taker.

Just impotent 'feel good' delusional nonsense.

It's the Cultcha, the Mooslums of dogs.


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