[Billthegravedigger]

How can you believe in god and not follow all the words of his book? You can't have it both ways.

First off, you may be having trouble staying respectful, but you are doing a FINE job of it, and again, thank you.
The way I can explain it, though it may not make sense to you or anyone else though it does to me is like this.

I think it is a safe assumption to say religion has cause more death than anything else in the history of the world. Some may not agree with that statement, but I think it is true.

Religion is hate, religion is fear, religion is war. I think God gave us certain rules and laws to follow, thus the ten commanments, and a lot of the U.S.'s laws are based in some part on the old laws from the old testament.

I do not think God is hate, I think he is love. He wants us to get along with everyone as much as possible. He also knows that since we are human, that wont always happen. That is the reason for the laws, to have a certain set of rules for all to follow. The problem there is that if man does not like certain parts of the law, when they pass them down for future generations, they can and do leave a word out here and there.

After so many generations do this, you have an end result that is going to be somewhat different than when it began. A law can be taken a different way when so many words are changed, or ommitted altogether.

That is how I can believe in God, but I also know that meanings have been lost in translation, or someone left out a part here and there. Like I said, I believe in God, but do not attend church often. I think it is up to each individual to figure their path out for themself. We can pretty much say he does not want us to kill people unless we have to, I unfortunately had to kill a man. He and others broke into my house, and I ended up being shot 5 times, and I shot him in the head and killed him. I did not want to do it, but it was him or me. I do not feel like God wants to condem me for that, though I know there are other things he would rather I not do. Will I die and go to hell ? Probably, but if I do, it will be my fault. A simple way, however corny it seems, to explain it is this. Remember the cartoons with the devil on one shoulder, and the angel on the other ? We all know right from wrong in most matters, the others is where your faith kicks in and you have to trust in a higher power.

[Billthegravedigger]

Originally Posted by Feirefiz ↗

Hey, I'm fine! How are you? :)
Bullshit is also an interesting association! What about saber-toothed-cat-jizz?^^

But BTT:
This thread reminded me of a post I made a few days ago on this forum. At first: I do not at all want to come to any terrorist's or muslim hate-preacher's defense here, but I think that, when we deal with the question of what god is, we should talk about Allah at least as a side note!
Many posts in this thread ask the old question of why god admits so many evil in the world whilst he is allegedly allmighty. This problem is called "Theodicy". What is very interesting about this problem is, that in Islam there is no such problem and no such question also! Christians picture their god very often as an old man - at least as a person. This christian god can "do things" and therefore it is not very easy to understand, why he doesn't avoid evil. But in Islam, Allah is never pictured as a person. Funnily enough, Allah in the muslim tradition is more what many posters in this thread said about their christian god: a spiritual power. Qu'ran says, that Allah "isn't, has never been and will never be" and also that he "wasn't created and did not create". Allah is like the highest form of a very abstract and, eventually, very intellectual idea of a spirit. Allah can't change things, they simply happen. Yes, he is allmighty but his allmight is of such a high form, that he cannot change things or fight evil. This is the truth, or, this is what Islam says. It's also the reason for there are no pictures of Allah in Islam, because there can't be pictures of Allah. This is a vast difference to christianity: look at the Vatican e.g. the Sixtina! God is pictured as a human being. Some people call Allah a "child lover" but this is also not true. Allah can't be a childlover, because he cannot *do* anything. This was Mohammed.
And as a further side note, let me repeat what I wrote in this other thread: It is always said, that Allah punishes people in the Qu'ran, but this is not true! Allah never punishes people, not in a single passage of the Qu'ran. Yes, we as christians read it, and we understand it with our christian POV. But Qu'ran says explicitly and in many passages, that the evil people were wrong, but they did not know it. Then they were shown Allah and they were punished by their mistake (and NOT by Allah). This is also very interesting, because Islam says, that a person cannot sin, if he/she doesn't know the truth about Allah. Here is also a vast difference to Christianity because the Bible says, that all people are sinners. In Islam you cannot sin as long as you DON'T KNOW that you are doing something wrong. I don't want to claim Islam being anyhow "further developed" than Christianity, but I think that one can see, that Islam came decades later and was founded on a rather larger base of exegesis.

It would be very nice, if you, all of you, would abandon to call me a Muslim or whatever, because I am not. I think it is important to know about Islam and to understand it as a religion. Islam is not a "moon cult" and we do good to be a bit more tolerant. Islam, in his true form, has nothing to do with suicide bombers or even with hidjab (the hidjab is a local tradition, and I think you know, that russian women also wear hidjab ;) ) Islam has a long and chatoyant history and culture, at least in Europe, where the supremacy of Muslims in South-West-Europe ended the Dark Middleages and planted the germ for the era of Renaissance which eventually led to the conquering of the New World! This is OUR history. We should not despise it.

THX.

I wont lie, I never have understood why people called him a child molester. I just never got that part. Another thing, I don't look down on Muslims. They are people trying to make sense of this mess we have called life. Ifthey have a different way of doing it, so be it. That is their right. I don't hate Muslims, I do not understand them at times, but you can not understand something and still show respect.

I know not all Muslims are terrorists, or suicide bombers. They belong to an extereist group, and not everyone that is a Muslim fits into that category. I like things like this, I get to see what others belive, and why they believe it. You know something else ? I always learn something from these experiences, even if I am learning something about myself.

[Billthegravedigger]

Hello ? Damn, did I freak everyone out ?

[BryanXavier]

Originally Posted by ernyzaz ↗

bryan i dont argue its just my opinion, you cant argue over this, who believes will always find a way to protect theyr statments, and whos not believing always find theyr way. But for me its mind blowing how people still in our age do believe.

No, erny, I am an athiest. I'm not being argumentative. I'm saying that the debate is age-old and it's important to get the facts, use logic, and decide for yourself if there is a God or not.

I say that because I settled it for myself first and if I ever want to get into a discussion, I can call up the reasons that had me come to that conclusion.

[BryanXavier]

Originally Posted by dankboosh ↗

The bible says god gave us all free will, which explains why he doesn't just force us to believe in him. Yet many believers, like Bill here, have fantastical stories about how god spoke to them in one way or another. Through a dream, another person, or even directly to them. Why does he pick people who have used that free will to fuck up their own lives? Why doesn't he choose to interject himself in situations where people's lives have been ruined by things they cannot control? Paraplegics, the mentally challenged, crack babies, etc. Makes no sense.

Beg to differ. The Bible, in my opinion, goes out of it's way to say explicitly we do not have free will, especially in salvation.

I'll be short, but logically if God knows everything that is going to happen, everything is fate and what may be perceived as free will is not. It had to happen.

Also, were are slaves to sin and everything we do is stained with sin so that even the best of actions are sinful (remember I am talking theology not personal opinion. I am not saying this is what I believe.)

And pertinent quotes would be "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—" That says that sin was like a DNA from Adam so that all offspring would sin and pass the "sin gene" on. The result was death for everyone because everyone MUST sin. We can't help it.

Regarding free choice in salvation: it isn't

Jesus said "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name." That is directed at the 12 apostles but for the rest of us, it's the same thing.

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?"

Key words: Chosen, elected, PREDESTINED = FATE. God does the picking and choosing of who he will save - not because any person is better or worse than the next, just ' cause.

Remember Israel constantly being referred to as the "chosen" people. God chose them because they were small and insignificant (His words not mine)

[BryanXavier]

Originally Posted by Billthegravedigger ↗

The VERY SAME MAN that talked to me at the hospital. He said " You know, God is only going to keep you from killing yourself so many times, he is getting fed up with you. " The last time I had seen him, was at that hospital, a few years before. And over 80 miles away. I know, I know. It sounds like horseshit, but it did happen. The other stuff, yeah, it could be explained away I guess, but that many circumstances ? The same man ? That far away ? That many pills ? A centerfire bullet misfiring ?

Bill, I have two things to say:

1. God loves you a hell of a lot more than me to do that for you.
2. You were hallucinating both times.

It's either one or the other. An angel made a special visit to you (not being an ass, just saying that's what it would have had to have been) or your psyche was putting you into self-preservation mode.

[BryanXavier]

Originally Posted by dankboosh ↗

Why do you think the majority of brilliant thinkers, geniuses and the like, are atheists or agnostic?

"But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong."

God picks losers to shame the smart people.

God, I still get choked up thinking about this shit and I don't believe.

[Billthegravedigger]

Originally Posted by BryanXavier ↗

Bill, I have two things to say:

1. God loves you a hell of a lot more than me to do that for you.
2. You were hallucinating both times.

It's either one or the other. An angel made a special visit to you (not being an ass, just saying that's what it would have had to have been) or your psyche was putting you into self-preservation mode.

Bryan, I have thought that before man. There is no sense in me lying about it. He was there in two pivotal times in my life where shit was fucked up, and it crossed my mind that I may have been tripping, then I remembered something. I was not the only person that saw him either time.

A few different family members saw him, and I will be honest, some that saw him were Christians. The messed up part is that another family member that was almost as bad as me was there, and walked up to me and asked who he was. I told them I had no clue. He said " Well, he sure as hell knew you. "

I have battles with myself at times, I wont lie. I am not a Christian, and I still have battles with myself at times about my inner feelings. That is the human condition. I don't care how long a person has had faith in God, or even been a preacher, several times in their life, they have had the same conflicting feelings.

About God loving me more than you ? I don't see that happening. I think he loves us all, and wants us to do well. Us being humans of course, we fuck it up ourselves. I don't know how or why you have came to your conclusion that he is not real, but at the same time, I have not experienced your life, or your pain.

That is why I don't get all defensive unless somebody is rude, condescending, or disrespectful. We all have our story, and none are identical. I do have to say this though, when you were a Christian, you had to have felt God's presence a few times. I think you may have forgotten what it was like, but I would have to think that when you felt him around you, you knew who it was. That is just my opinion, and I have no right to say what you do and do not believe.

We are all different in some ways, and some more than others. Why you changed your mind is YOUR buisness, not mine. I wont try to interigate you about it, I respect your opinion. I just keep trying to learn from anyone and everyone, there is no knowledge that is not power. I read that on Mortal Combat years ago, and it is the truth.

You might learn something crazy that other people think is useless or stupid. On the other hand, you could learn something invalueable that may save your life. I get what you were saying about no freewill in salvation. That is just the thing though, he gives us freewill to choose right from wrong. We can do what we want and be evil, or welcome salvation. It's our freewill to decide which one.

You are cool man, even if we don't see things the same. If everyone would work on what we have in common instead of differences, there will be a big change in the world.

[Billthegravedigger]

God, I still get choked up thinking about this shit and I don't believe.

That very statement is why I think you know he is real. If he was fake, not real, or any of that, you would not get choked up. Again, that is just my opinion, that doesn't mean I am right.

[BryanXavier]

I'm going to post a vid Bill for the hell of it. Hold on. I'm having fun.