[icheerthebull]

Originally Posted by RobMoses ↗

The same kids who have bombs strapped to them, and guns in their pockets. Like I said before, they are both doing wrong, but the only way this ends is to let them fight it out, all out. No more of this he said, she said bullcrap. Civilians will always be the most effected. No one complains about all the civilians that died during the carpet bombings on Berlin or the Atom Bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, you know why? Because it ended the war. This 50+ year conflict needs to end.

What? You hear plenty of complaints about the carpet bombing of Germany, plenty about Churchill ordering the bombing of thousands of French troops and plenty about the bomb

[RobMoses]

Originally Posted by icheerthebull ↗

What? You hear plenty of complaints about the carpet bombing of Germany, plenty about Churchill ordering the bombing of thousands of French troops and plenty about the bomb

You know, you are actually right. But let's not forget all those V2 rockets shot at London well before one bomb went off inside Berlin. We are going to go cack and forth. I respect your opinion, and actually, you have made me reconsider some of the points brought up. I think we both agree that civilians, regardless of where they are, are always the biggest losers in any of these conflicts. I leave thus convo on that note.

[icheerthebull]

Originally Posted by RobMoses ↗

You know, you are actually right. But let's not forget all those V2 rockets shot at London well before one bomb went off inside Berlin. We are going to go cack and forth. I respect your opinion, and actually, you have made me reconsider some of the points brought up. I think we both agree that civilians, regardless of where they are, are always the biggest losers in any of these conflicts. I leave thus convo on that note.

Oh we def agree on that. The ones who give the orders (on both sides) are rarely the ones who die/suffer

[fapfapfap]

Originally Posted by shauns26 ↗

Quite an accurate description of the conflict and its history, but still very pro-Israeli.

I only care about the "accurate description of the conflict and its history" part, and couldn't care less where that is perceived on the spectrum of pro-one side or the other.

History, while never being as black and white as most people's snap-opinions on the subject are, is also rarely as balanced as some people would like.

Anyway, your points are perfectly valid, but I'm surprised because I more or less touched on them. I specifically mentioned that Jew influence in the U.S. was a key factor to the creation of Israel, and I also mentioned Jewish financiers bankrolling the mining of Diamonds in the late 19th century and early 20th century, which is a root of this conflict. Shrug.

[biigjc]

I used to be a staunch Israel supporter. But no more- I can't understand how a bunch of folks who survived the horrors of ghettos and internment to form their own homeland, should then recreate the same conditions in their own back yard. Shame on them.

[jumpingjames69]

interesting thanks

Originally Posted by fapfapfap ↗

Here's the history lesson nobody gives you because everybody gives you a one-sided, propaganda based view:

After about 1000 year cycle of Jews getting hated on and expelled from most of Europe (whether they deserved it or if they were wrongly persecuted is a pretty awesome debate to have), Hitler attempted to finally get rid of them once and for all.

He gave it his all but came up short. In response (Post WWII), the world decided to create a country out of thin air to re-patriate Jews back to their holy land (one that they themselves took by force by beheading lots of Caananites, because God told them to and all, and one which they hadn't really had any control over in a long, long time).

This creation of a country out of thin air was pretty much unprecedented in human history, but because Jew influence was so strong in the west, particularly in the U.S., it happened anyway.

This caused all of the surrounding arab states to declare that they were going to wipe out Israel, and instructed the local arabs to evacuate. Unfortunately for them, Israel whipped their ass, and a bazillion refugees have basically been refugees since.

While whipping Arab ass, Israel occupied the Golan Heights (Syrian), Gaza (Egyptian), and the West Bank (Jordanian). Since, those three lands have been contentious. Israel has been reluctant to hand them back, as they are/were strategically important.

At some point over the decades, the peoples in those contentious areas began to transform their identity from what they really are (refugees from the arab-israeli war), into self-identifying as an ethnic group, the "Palestinians", and have been selling the notion that they are a poor oppressed local peoples who have been there for thousands of years.

They've claimed all kinds of bullshit like they're descendants of the phillistines, etc. The reality is that ethnically, most of them are either recent refugees, or hills people from the Syrian highlands who were brought in in the late 19th century to work on the diamond mines for, you guessed it, Jew financiers in the U.K. (there's your ironic twist).

Eventually (in the 90s), Israel attempted to give Gaza they're self-governing independence under the Palestinian Authority. The problem is that the arab world, and those in the Palestinian territories, have never given up the goal of annihilating Israel, even though they've done a decent job of making people in the west believe it.

Thus, Israel is constantly being pressured (by the west) to accept "cease fires" and "peace deals" that the palestinians have no real desire to stick to for any length of time.

After Gaza was given their independence, they responded by organizing for a few years and then waging war on Israel, under the PLO and boy-raping leader Yassir Arafat.

The leadership of the PLO eventually became Fatah, one faction of palestinian leadership. Meanwhile, an even more radical offshoot of the muslim brotherhood formed, called Hamas.

Hamas seized control of Gaza several years ago after an lol-rigged election, and Gaza has basically been fucked since. One problem is that Hamas leadership is so bad, that even when they want to leave Israel alone, plenty of people don't, and they end up pissing Israel off anyway.

Slowly, Arab countries have gotten sick of the Palestinians, and have backed away from the "we need to destroy israel" line, and many now wish the Palestinians would settle down.

One problem is that Egypt wants no part of trying to govern Gaza, and the Jordanians want no part in trying to govern the West Bank. Thus, the cleanest solution, which would be to have Egypt re-absorb Gaza, Jordan re-absorb the West Bank, and Syria re-absorb the Golan Heights, will not happen as long as A) those countries don't want to deal with absorbing them, and B) The Palestinians refuse to give up on the thought of eradicating Israel.

Thus, you have the current situation which is periodic flare-ups where the Israelis get sick of getting attacked, and do some military operations outside of Israel to try and fix the problem. The whole world has its mind made up about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, so everytime it happens everyone already has their mind made up about who's right and wrong.

Unfortunately, nothing is ever that black and white, and the reality is that everyone is at least partially full of shit.

I have no idea why I bothered to type all of that out, but seeing someone post an honest request for info in the middle of all of the stupid "OMG FUCK ISRAEL" and "OMG FUCK THE HAMAS TERRORISTS" posts inspired me I guess.

I know you said short and sweet but honestly, that's as short and sweet as I can make it and still explain the situation to someone. Sorry, hope it didn't bore you.

[Feirefiz]

Both are great Pallywood short films i give them four stars all in all.:xyxthumbs
But the second one i even liked better than the first because of its pallyesce authenticity:
- not a single open wound
- not a single trouser or shirt ripped apart or onoly dirty
- no arm or leg torn or only harmed
- no dust or rubble
Only
- people laying on the ground covered with artificial blood and performing gymnastics with
- other people that are screaming for no apparent reason
- a loud bang but no dust or anything
- very careless transport of severely injured people

It's definitely a Pallywood classic: only God knows what really happened.:

[fragmentate]

The displaced Arabs renamed themselves "Palestinians". In 1948 the Arab-Israeli war happened. Needless to say, when you're attacked by Arabs from all sides, you're a little skittish when Arabs living in your country start blowing shit up. Hence, the expulsion of Arabs from Israel. A percentage of them were Christian. The lions-share were, obviously, Muslim. This leads to the false argument that they kicked out all non-Jews. The truth is, they kicked out all Arabs - it was race-based, nothing to do with religion. The religious representations were incidental.

Israel is about the size of Nova Scotia, and has a population of about 7.3M people. The bordering Arab countries have a collective population of nearly 120M. Israel has to be pro-active in defending themselves. Just by sheer numbers the Arabs could overrun Israel. But, this isn't about Arabs versus Israel. Otherwise, the Arabs would have stepped in a long, long time ago.

This is about a religious sect of the Muslim faith wanting the total annihilation of Jews, and Israel. They don't want to take it over. They want to level it to rubble, eliminating all people who do not agree with their brand of Islam. Twatwaffles that try to sell this as apartheid haven't managed to pull their heads out for over 60 years. That's not really true, since they actually take that position ideologically - probably because they detest Jews or Israel.

The surprising part, for most, would be that Hamas (aka Palestinians) would not only annihilate atheists, agnostics, Jews, and Christians; they would also eliminate opponent Muslim sects as well. Specifically, any Muslim that has been living prosperously, and peacefully inside of Israel. Those Arabs and Muslims that live inside Israel are free to practice their religion and not only do not want harm to come to Israel, they're actually opposed to Hamas - after all, even they would be targeted. They're infidels by way of integrating with infidels.

I've been to Israel and it's actually more integrated than many US cities. I was shocked to learn that over 20% of the population in Israel proper was Arab - Christian, Jew, and Muslim. Yes, Arab Jews. The part that always stuns me is all the loudmouth douchnoodles distrust the news, or label everything as propaganda completely dismissing the possibility that the side they chose might be guilty of the same.

You'd think logic would step in. But this is an emotional question, not one of logic. Alas, I'll attempt logic anyway:

If this was about the oppression of Arabs why aren't the surrounding Arab nations absorbing them? There is more than ample space for the Palestinians. Jordan doesn't want them. Syria doesn't want them. Lebanon doesn't want them. Egypt doesn't want them. What logical reason do they have for not wanting them?

Any of these Palestinians could freely, openly, and diplomatically practice their religion as citizens of Israel - the Muslims already living peacefully inside Israel prove that out. Israel welcomes them, imposes no restrictions on them running for elected office, hold judicial positions, and own businesses no differently than Jews. Hell, a Muslim judge once sentenced a former Prime Minister - and did so fairly - and ALL Israelis accepted the sentence as LAWFUL.

Hamas is in control, and they shower Gaza, and West Bank in propaganda 24 hours a day, every day. They kill their own in staged skirmishes (numerous examples of this on Live Leak and YouTube), and try to foment anger within these "occupied" territories.

Those of you that frequent DR should know better by now having watched all of the beheadings, and propaganda pieces we witness with our own eyes. I don't see Israel parading dead people around, and hanging them from crosses, or stakes. I have yet to see a single example of a group of Palestinians sitting in a closed room held by Israelis with scarves over their heads . I don't see Israelis reciting Hebrew admonitions to infidels and cold justifications for the brutality they're about to inflict.

Hamas is a terrorist group that beheads not only Americans, Jews, and Christians - they do the same to those of their own religion. They just don't care because their goal is terror, and death.

How do you negotiate with someone with this credo:
"We love death more than the Israelis love life."

If that isn't clear to you. You're a retard.

I hate slogans, but this one is true:
"Hamas uses civilians to protect its weapons. Israel uses weapons to protect civilians."

Fin.

[87wildside]

Originally Posted by Fr33dom ↗

Unfortunately till today it was not proven that hamas or whomever was involved in this. And if so, it is a crime ! Who the fuck is so sick, beneath the US and israel, to start a war against a whole "country" (occupied) for 3 deaths ?
Normaly police investigate and you get someone to a court, Finish. But Israel wants again to proceed its ethnic massacre on palestines, because they are racists, and because they want to steal even more land. Israel was and will never be interested in a peacefull 2 state solution, because this would have them to give land back to the palestinians. So they will keep massacring them, untill somebody nukes Israel, or the people in Israel stand up for human rights, in fact there is apartheid, there are a lot of laws against arabs, only for jews, there are very much areas where arabs are not allowed to go, even if they are jewish arabs, there are streets in which israelis walk and beside them streets for palestinians. There are buses that are not usable by muslims, there are walls everywhere, Israel is able to shut down electricity whenever they want and they do it, most time palestinians only have 3-4 hours a day electricity. There is no source of clean water, palestinians are not allowed to fish, and so on and on. This is pure racism and hatred, against a population that did nothing to israel ( at least no serious harm).
So in conclusion, someday im sure in 10-20 years, our childs will ask us where we were when all this massacres happened against a innocent, inprisoned population, whom only wrong is that they are muslims. And we will answer in the same way like after the 2nd world war ?

I think a couple of Palatine's (sp?) took the wrap but then Israel killed a teen from the west bank. Palestine shot mortars, Jews shoot missiles.

I do agree with you 100 percent. Palestine did nothing but have land stolen from them. The Jewish land has not existed for a very long time. Israelites and modern day Jews are a whole lot different. The US fucked up helping the Jewish state steal land in the 50's. I know that's why 9.11 happened and will happen again.

Just so you know, people from the US are not what you see from our government. We have to pick the lesser of two evils or maybe the better of two retards. Either way, that is not us. We are just like everyone else in the world, good hard working people trying to make something out of life.

[andrew101]

Originally Posted by fapfapfap ↗

Here's the history lesson nobody gives you because everybody gives you a one-sided, propaganda based view:

After about 1000 year cycle of Jews getting hated on and expelled from most of Europe (whether they deserved it or if they were wrongly persecuted is a pretty awesome debate to have), Hitler attempted to finally get rid of them once and for all.

He gave it his all but came up short. In response (Post WWII), the world decided to create a country out of thin air to re-patriate Jews back to their holy land (one that they themselves took by force by beheading lots of Caananites, because God told them to and all, and one which they hadn't really had any control over in a long, long time).

This creation of a country out of thin air was pretty much unprecedented in human history, but because Jew influence was so strong in the west, particularly in the U.S., it happened anyway.

This caused all of the surrounding arab states to declare that they were going to wipe out Israel, and instructed the local arabs to evacuate. Unfortunately for them, Israel whipped their ass, and a bazillion refugees have basically been refugees since.

While whipping Arab ass, Israel occupied the Golan Heights (Syrian), Gaza (Egyptian), and the West Bank (Jordanian). Since, those three lands have been contentious. Israel has been reluctant to hand them back, as they are/were strategically important.

At some point over the decades, the peoples in those contentious areas began to transform their identity from what they really are (refugees from the arab-israeli war), into self-identifying as an ethnic group, the "Palestinians", and have been selling the notion that they are a poor oppressed local peoples who have been there for thousands of years.

They've claimed all kinds of bullshit like they're descendants of the phillistines, etc. The reality is that ethnically, most of them are either recent refugees, or hills people from the Syrian highlands who were brought in in the late 19th century to work on the diamond mines for, you guessed it, Jew financiers in the U.K. (there's your ironic twist).

Eventually (in the 90s), Israel attempted to give Gaza they're self-governing independence under the Palestinian Authority. The problem is that the arab world, and those in the Palestinian territories, have never given up the goal of annihilating Israel, even though they've done a decent job of making people in the west believe it.

Thus, Israel is constantly being pressured (by the west) to accept "cease fires" and "peace deals" that the palestinians have no real desire to stick to for any length of time.

After Gaza was given their independence, they responded by organizing for a few years and then waging war on Israel, under the PLO and boy-raping leader Yassir Arafat.

The leadership of the PLO eventually became Fatah, one faction of palestinian leadership. Meanwhile, an even more radical offshoot of the muslim brotherhood formed, called Hamas.

Hamas seized control of Gaza several years ago after an lol-rigged election, and Gaza has basically been fucked since. One problem is that Hamas leadership is so bad, that even when they want to leave Israel alone, plenty of people don't, and they end up pissing Israel off anyway.

Slowly, Arab countries have gotten sick of the Palestinians, and have backed away from the "we need to destroy israel" line, and many now wish the Palestinians would settle down.

One problem is that Egypt wants no part of trying to govern Gaza, and the Jordanians want no part in trying to govern the West Bank. Thus, the cleanest solution, which would be to have Egypt re-absorb Gaza, Jordan re-absorb the West Bank, and Syria re-absorb the Golan Heights, will not happen as long as A) those countries don't want to deal with absorbing them, and B) The Palestinians refuse to give up on the thought of eradicating Israel.

Thus, you have the current situation which is periodic flare-ups where the Israelis get sick of getting attacked, and do some military operations outside of Israel to try and fix the problem. The whole world has its mind made up about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, so everytime it happens everyone already has their mind made up about who's right and wrong.

Unfortunately, nothing is ever that black and white, and the reality is that everyone is at least partially full of shit.

I have no idea why I bothered to type all of that out, but seeing someone post an honest request for info in the middle of all of the stupid "OMG FUCK ISRAEL" and "OMG FUCK THE HAMAS TERRORISTS" posts inspired me I guess.

I know you said short and sweet but honestly, that's as short and sweet as I can make it and still explain the situation to someone. Sorry, hope it didn't bore you.

A history lesson???? You obviously haven't got a clue. It's been a while since I read so much uninformed wishful thinking and speculation clumped together and 'marketed' as fact. Where the fuck did you get this from? The top of your head I guess.

Originally Posted by fapfapfap ↗

After about 1000 year cycle of Jews getting hated on and expelled from most of EUROPE

Exactly - EUROPE! Jewish communities having lived peacefully within Arab lands without much incident e.g. Historical communities in Palestine (who fought alongside Arabs against European Crusaders of the Middle Ages), Turkey and Morrocco where they had emigrated from persecution in Christian Spain.

So why is it that those same guilty European countries decided to give Palestinian/Arab land to the Jews? (See Balfour Declaration, Sykes/Picot Agreement ect.)?

If I were to persecute and kill your family would it be fair and just to give you my innocent neighbour's house as compensation?

Originally Posted by fapfapfap ↗

create a country out of THIN AIR to re-patriate Jews back to their holy land

Originally Posted by fapfapfap ↗

This creation of a country out of THIN AIR was pretty much unprecedented in human history

Creating a country "out of thin air" conveniently misses the main point of this current conflict. Isreal was not created in some type of magic show. Let's not forget that this "thin air" was called Palestine, which was already inhabited by Palestinians. Palestinians refer to themselves (as does the Arabic language) as Philistines. Philistines were the original inhabitants of this 'holy land' before the Israelites were allegedly ordered by God on a 'jihad' to take it for themselves (See the Bible for further details). This sort of trumps your so-called 're-patriation' argument.

Originally Posted by fapfapfap ↗

arab states......instructed the local arabs to evacuate.

Another example of total whitewash of the facts, totally laughable if it was not so tragic.

Very few Palestinians left on the instruction of their leaders. Most fled or were expelled by Israeli forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...stine_refugees).

Please see also:

The Abu Shusha Massacre
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Shu..._and_aftermath)

Al-Dawayima massacre
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Dawayima_massacre)

Operation Hiram
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Hiram#Massacres)

Operation Yoav
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operati..._Arab_villages)

Saliha Massacre
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saliha#..._and_aftermath)

Deir Yassin massacre
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre)

Massacre in Lydda
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Pa...sacre_in_Lydda)

The list goes on....

As does the bullshit in your post

e.g.

'Gaza being given independence'...LOL! Which is code (sorry....propaganda) for illegal occupiers finally pull out.

and your claim that Gaza had a 'rigged' election.

Too much waffle to deal in one post. If I have the time and inclination. I may deal with the rest of your uninformed horseshit another time.