[scorpion9]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

[...]Also I don’t remember them celebrating occupation of Estonia, or any other occupation tbh. It’s like you drew this picture in you had that keeps you blind, idk[...]

[...]
I’m trying to say that we have never celebrated any occupation, but victory over Germany and those who fell fighting them and in my childhood circle we were happy to be together and didn’t hate each other.
[...]

I know.
The fact that you think I was suggesting otherwise shows again, that you missed my point.

My whole point was that Russians did both, acts of terror towards their neighbors, invasion, a treaty with Hitler, murder of their own citizens, forced labor camps etc....and they also fought a defensive war against the nazis.

When the Russians celebrate their war generals, leaders, veterans etc, do they also celebrate all the evil that those people did? If they celebrate WW2 era politicians, does it mean they want to rebuild gulags and start killing their neighbors again?
No...at least I hope not.
They celebrate the part of the veterans/leaders/policies and decisions made during WW2 that were good in their eyes.

Why do you think that Ukrainians or others who fought on the German side aren't doing the exact same thing?
How can a Russian honor the Red Army that committed atrocities and also fought for their independence ... yet Ukrainians can't honor their partisans/army who committed atrocities and fought for their independence?

It's not the atrocities that are being celebrated, it's the fight for independence.
If someone celebrates the atrocities...then sure, I'm 100% with you. They can go fuck themselves.

[duntez]

Originally Posted by scorpion9 ↗

I know.
The fact that you think I was suggesting otherwise shows again, that you missed my point.

My whole point was that Russians did both, acts of terror towards their neighbors, invasion, a treaty with Hitler, murder of their own citizens, forced labor camps etc....and they also fought a defensive war against the nazis.

When the Russians celebrate their war generals, leaders, veterans etc, do they also celebrate all the evil that those people did? If they celebrate WW2 era politicians, does it mean they want to rebuild gulags and start killing their neighbors again?
No...at least I hope not.
They celebrate the part of the veterans/leaders/policies and decisions made during WW2 that were good in their eyes.

Why do you think that Ukrainians or others who fought on the German side aren't doing the exact same thing?
How can a Russian honor the Red Army that committed atrocities and also fought for their independence ... yet Ukrainians can't honor their partisans/army who committed atrocities and fought for their independence?

It's not the atrocities that are being celebrated, it's the fight for independence.
If someone celebrates the atrocities...then sure, I'm 100% with you. They can go fuck themselves.

No, I got your point. I was just explaining you mine. My grandparents fought against them and for their country. USSR fighting with their western Allie’s fought against them. I always thought that Ukraine or USSR was my home country and there are no chances that I would support those who fought against my people. Plus, you might have a different opinion, SS has done way more of an evil things than USSR, not even comparable IMO.

[WonderMomma]

No one asked for my 2 cents, but I'm going to give it. lol

There is about 300 years of modern history in the region that I am very knowledgeable about. 300 years of Russia vying for eastern/southern Ukraine having conquered some, lost some and everything in between. Russians have been living, working and building their lives in the region for at least that long, possibly longer.

In 1954, Crimea was transferred into the Ukrainian SSR until 1992 when it came under control of Ukraine after the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

Duntez is Ukrainian. Born in Crimea with family still there. I understand that his mom, and perhaps her parents were raised under the USSR (Ukrainian SSR)... he was born around the time Soviet era ended or shortly thereafter. He was brought up aligning more with that side of this complicated history between Russia and Ukraine. He didn't choose this but even if he did, regardless of how "wrong" I or anyone else thinks Russia invading Ukraine is, I understand it's very complicated for the people that have generations upon generations of history being there. Russians/Ukrainians alike.

He's not pro-Putin. He's not pro-Russian Federation like some of the pro-Russian people here who aren't even from either country. Imagine being in that position. From what I understand there are lots of people just like duntez that don't necessarily want to be under Russian Federation (as it is today) rule nor Ukrainian rule. I don't know if he would like to be independent from both, but I know he doesn't care for either the current Russian or Ukrainian governments and there are plenty of others that feel the same way.

The only way I can remotely relate to duntez is the fact I am Native American, British and Irish. I'm living in a country with about 300 years of modern history that involved one group of people coming in and settling on the land of another. One side moving in, taking land, and pushing out indigenous/native people through violence, greed, sabotage, etc. My ancestors are both the invaders and defenders. I'm not a huge fan of my country's two-party political system. But what can I do other than just exist in the middle of it all. Cross my fingers, clench my ass cheeks and hope for the best.

Maybe that helps me empathize a little more with him... but ultimately, who am I to judge Duntez? No matter how much knowledge I have about the modern history of the region, I am not from there. He is. He gets my respect for that. He and Artem are both Ukrainian with opposing views. To me, their opinions hold a little more weight than most.

He is always open for a civil discussion about differences which I appreciate. Sometimes we argue about shit, sometimes we both think the other is absolutely nuts... . But I'm ok with that. He is easy to talk to about this stuff.

Sorry, I know some people aren't going to like this but it's how I feel.

[Faust]

duntez

https://reyestr.court.gov.ua/Review/114304164

Looks like Oliver Stone called it

[duntez]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

duntez

https://reyestr.court.gov.ua/Review/114304164

Looks like Oliver Stone called it

That’s a lot of information.. did you read it all?

[kellyhound]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

I don’t remember Russians walking around their capitol with the photos of Stalin, Lenin, Zhukov, Rokossovskij or whoever and celebrating their Birthdays,

[duntez]

Originally Posted by kellyhound ↗

Seriously? 103,5 people ?
I can get way more people to March with the pictures of Japanese cartoons. Plus I said (maybe during Soviet Union, but my generation or younger people pfff, forget about it)

[Faust]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

That’s a lot of information.. did you read it all?

I read the translated summary

Anyway it confirms that it was not the governmental forces that fired at their own people

[kellyhound]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

Seriously? 103,5 people ?
I can get way more people to March with the pictures of Japanese cartoons. Plus I said (maybe during Soviet Union, but my generation or younger people pfff, forget about it)

https://unherd.com/2021/08/young-russians-love-stalin/

2021, Stalin, it turned out, could not be so easily forgotten. This June, Russians named him the “most notable” figure in history for the 10th year running; and now, a mere two months later, a new poll by the the Levada Center has found that nearly half of Russians want a Stalin statue to celebrate the USSR’s victory over the Nazis — a figure that has nearly doubled in the past ten years. Surprisingly, this is largely driven by people under the age of 40, among whom support for a monument has quintupled over the past decade.

More: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47975704

Guess they take the other atrocities against his own people for granted as they only see the nazi defeat and for bandera supporters it's probably the same.

Ukrainians are more positive about Peter the Great or Leonid Brezhnev than about Bandera. By the results of a poll of 2018:

18% -- totally positive about Bandera

18% -- rather positive

5% -- said thay don't know about him

26% -- "hard to say"

10% -- rather negative

24% -- totally negative.

the population praises Bandera because of his dreams of independent Ukraine and pushing the other atrocities into the background.

[duntez]

Originally Posted by kellyhound ↗

https://unherd.com/2021/08/young-russians-love-stalin/

2021, Stalin, it turned out, could not be so easily forgotten. This June, Russians named him the “most notable” figure in history for the 10th year running; and now, a mere two months later, a new poll by the the Levada Center has found that nearly half of Russians want a Stalin statue to celebrate the USSR’s victory over the Nazis — a figure that has nearly doubled in the past ten years. Surprisingly, this is largely driven by people under the age of 40, among whom support for a monument has quintupled over the past decade.

More: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47975704

Guess they take the other atrocities against his own people for granted as they only see the nazi defeat and for bandera supporters it's probably the same.

Ukrainians are more positive about Peter the Great or Leonid Brezhnev than about Bandera. By the results of a poll of 2018:

18% -- totally positive about Bandera

18% -- rather positive

5% -- said thay don't know about him

26% -- "hard to say"

10% -- rather negative

24% -- totally negative.

the population praises Bandera because of his dreams of independent Ukraine and pushing the other atrocities into the background.

Well I was wrong about this on, apologies. Too many years in US and apparently they have changed something.

“ The role of Joseph Stalin in the new unified textbook on the history of Russia will be presented more objectively, says Mikhail Myagkov, scientific director of the Russian Military Historical Society (RVIO). According to him, if in the textbooks of the 1990s Stalin was presented as a “tyrant and a beast,” now the emphasis will be on his role as the commander-in-chief of the country that defeated Nazism.”


I hope you guys understand that UPA or Bandera or his SS animals will always be traitors, killers and SS servants for me, just as Stalin for others. There for, there is no point to fight over this. Some will hate Stalin, others them.

Also your numbers just show how stupid it was for new government of 2014 to bring this UPA Bandera idea into all Ukraine Especially southeast , for whom they are nothing but dirt.