[RaNer]

Originally Posted by kellyhound ↗

Putin couldn't care less about human lives (russians or not) or else he wouldn't have waited for 10 years. He just saw his imperial nostalgia just further slip away plus that part of Ukraine is important when it comes to the black sea, grain, mining etc., that's why so many oligarchs were present there.
The real reason imo : https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-in...ne-why-why-now

Talking about history and their fail to invade other countries. Also just ask anyone from the Baltic states about how much fun it was between 1940 and 1991 as the russians didn't care shit about the people other then the baltic area being their main sea economic supply route.

Not too mention Chechnya and Afghanistan:


So when other countries helping countries like Ukraine it's suddenly called a proxy war.

He waited because Ukraine and Russians are like brothers and sisters, same tribe, many intermixed marriages. Also it was a slow process it's not like Azov started to mass kill asap.

Baltic states owe their independence to Soviet Union same as Finland for example.

If you want to understand the dynamics you must read upon Revolution of 1917. Also Baltic states were highly pro-axis so they were not very popular in Soviet Union but still accepted.

What are Baltic states now? Nothing. Same as ex-Yugoslav ones. Also I'm not sure about which incidents are you referring to? To the fact Soviets rebuilt whole Baltics after Germans went trough them like knife trough butter?

Everything happening in Middle East as Afghanistan is reaction to what's West been doing. Yeah it could have been done better but Russians are also not a saints. But way honest about their intentions. It was SOVIETS btw. not Russians only. That includes friends Ukrainians.

[RaNer]

Originally Posted by scorpion9 ↗

Of course. It's war. It's not some kind of "SMO" like the führer keeps telling you.


Yeah, i'd say that to the hundreds of thousands of ruzzian nazis who could have stayed in their own country and just chilled.
The power to end the war was in their hands. If they had refused the führer's orders to invade, it would have all been over.


Not the world. They are no longer capable of that. They just want to re-occupy their previously conquered territories and perhaps some more later on. It's stupid to pretend that russia isn't an empire looking for conquest. Its very existence is founded on conquest.


And?
Thats what people do in free countries. Thats what people do in my country, in my neighboring countries, in most of latin america etc. Wherever there is a wealthy country next to you, people will want to go and work there. This is a good thing because people bring that money into their country and it will raise the living standards over the years. When Estonia became independent from ruzzian occupation, our salaries were around 200 eur a month( if you worked hard ). As soon as the borders opened up, people went to work in Finland en-mass. They took their earnings, saved up for a few months and came back and opened businesses here. They build summer homes here. They helped their families out of poverty and so on. My brother still works in Finland and has a family here in Estonia. Ukraine wants to do the same. They will work in wealthier countries, bringing money into their own economy in the process.


Hmm, they have their own president, their own government and people who can vote freely to change that government. I'd say they are in far more control over their government than Ruzzians, Serbs or Belarussians. And the debt...if you are referring to the aid Ukraine has received then a lot of it(maybe even most of it) is just aid. It's not meant to be paid back. Lend lease works in a similar way. Is Russia still in debt to the West because the west gave Russians unprecedented amounts of lend-lease aid during the second world war?


Nope, they didn't want to "rip russians".
Nope, they didn't want to take territory. They just want to keep their country...like people from every other country. Russians are the ones trying to take territory and "rip ukrainians".
Yes, they want to be rich...who doesn't. Do you want to be poor?
Yes, they want to be in EU...why shouldn't they? In terms of its success, EU is the best organization created by humans so far. People who argue otherwise are just stupid and know nothing about it.
Yes, they want to join NATO - for obvious reasons, and again...NATO is the strongest military alliance ever created. So what.

Your post screams of russian propaganda. The most telling sign is the keyword "anglosaxons". Thats a russian propaganda term that isnt used anywhere else. Same goes for the claim that "ukraine wont exist as a nation". Thats entirely russian propaganda piece as well.

My countrymen have nothing to do in Russia. Russia didn't do nothing to Croatia. They got what they deserved and died for nothing.

Russians are most anti-nazi people in world and calling them nazis is ridicilous. Putin Fuhrer? lol.

It's futile to even comment on rest as I already explained what AZOV did to Russians for years and if you think Ukraine is not controlled from outside powers for years and sold out to the west because of pipe dream then I don't know what to tell you, you are ignoring obvious facts.

Rip Russians = killing Russians in Eastern Ukraine I didn't mention any territory. It was to provoke a war. Goal is weaker Russia and Europe. USA is losing grip last 10 years war is needed.

And no they will get nothing. Same as we didn't get nothing except sorrows and misery. Croatia and Slovenia are in EU. We are not rich. We are shithole. Before we had some balance now we have 200 rich family rest are poor fucks. We had best standard in Yugoslavia (general population).

Finns were always capable. EU or not. Just that kind of a nation. Same as Swiss. Are Swiss in EU?

And yeah your's not propaganda "ruzzians" "Putin fuhrer" etc. How to discuss these things when you ignored almost every point I made.

You didn't read nothing, just typing like Ukrainian propagandists does. I already wrote what kind of "debt" that is. They are puppet state and USA will keep them that way.

NATO is not most powerful. Most of Europeans would not fight, we don't even have enough ammo for Ukrainians and most powerful armies are: China, USA and Russia. NATO is far behind.

Come and live in EU and then speak about "higher salaries". You don't mention what happened to prices.

What else to add - Bear stayed home for way too long and let Bandera supporters kill their people. Sadly their own brothers in a way because all Slavs are brothers. Their treachery of Soviet WW2 resistance will always remain stain on our joint history.

[RaNer]

Originally Posted by RedactedKaos ↗

Hahaha that last part had me rolling.. To true


Say that's true.. the voice of the people is still heard you know what I mean and I mean heard by everyone else that's a citizen so you have kind of a general idea at least only if you're just straight being told fuck you or not

What gives russia the right to dictate what alliances another country wants to join? I mean look at Russia's whatever block I forgot what the name of of it is but it pretty much consists of all the shit holes of the world (not ragging on those countries but just sayin).. Who would you want to be with and no I'm not saying NATO is the exact same as the russian bloc or whatever.

But I'm to stupid to properly debate you.. Regardless it's fun to have dialog, I'm all good with being schooled.. Unless the teacher is wrong.. Pokin fun

Russia dictates shit. Again, we made fool out of them numerous times, lastly with Minsk agreement. Again I'm repeating myself as a parrot - Merkel said it herself. We are feeding Ukraine weapons for years behind Russian backs and are making idiots out of them since dissolution of Soviet Union.

They have 0 problem with NATO but they have problems when we(as part of NATO) break agreements.

And still they are way forgiving. I can only imagine Tuđman or Milošević sitting in Kremlin they would have 0 empathy towards anyone who's doing them like that.

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Originally Posted by kellyhound ↗

So when other countries helping countries like Ukraine it's suddenly called a proxy war.

"Proxy war" has been murdered as a term and its use in this conflict is stemmed in saving face, defeat, embarassment, and dishonesty.

It's been misused to the point of it not meaning anything now. When Ukraine started beating the dogshit out of Russia at the start of the invasion, Russia had to frame it in an alternative way: "No, it couldn't possibly be Ukrainians beating us - that's too embarassing, we're mighty Russia and better than everyone, Русский Мир. Ok let's say it's the Americans - NATO soldiers and armor in Ukraine, let's push that down our subjects' throats, half of them were born in the Soviet Union afterall, they'll believe it."

Simply helping a country with weapons, equipment and training does not constitute a proxy war - which is when you instigate a war and/or control the actions of another country in war but you're not doing the actual fighting. Anyone who says this is a proxy war is one of the following:

- Ignorant of what the term is
- Dishonest

The US did not instigate this in 2014, Ukrainians didn't need help throwing Yanukovich out on his ass. The concept of the Ukrainian presidency being totally controlled by a different country (Russia) was enough and pissed a lot of people off. Russia did this to themselves, got caught, and now have a legendary case of sour grapes made worse by failing to erase Ukraine as a country afterwards.

[K-Blast]

Originally Posted by RaNer ↗

Problem is killing of Russians in Eastern Ukraine. Systematical for 10 years. Not only killing but torturing and all by hands of neo-nazi groups like Azov.

And then Putin said that it's enough.

Today on "Revisionist History Comedy Hour"...

[Guns N' Coffee]

Talk about giving aid to a country...
Let's hear about the Lend-Lease Act for the Soviet Union during WW2.

"In total, the U.S. deliveries to the USSR through Lend-Lease amounted to $11 billion in materials (equivalent to $133 billion in 2021)"-World War II Allies: U.S. Lend-Lease to the Soviet Union, 1941-1945". United States Embassy in Russia. May 10, 2020.

Nikita Khrushchev who served as a military commissar during Stalin stated "I would like to express my candid opinion about Stalin's views on whether the Red Army and the Soviet Union could have coped with Nazi Germany and survived the war without aid from the United States and Britain. First, I would like to tell about some remarks Stalin made and repeated several times when we were "discussing freely" among ourselves. He stated bluntly that if the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. If we had had to fight Nazi Germany one on one, we could not have stood up against Germany's pressure, and we would have lost the war. No one ever discussed this subject officially, and I don't think Stalin left any written evidence of his opinion, but I will state here that several times in conversations with me he noted that these were the actual circumstances. He never made a special point of holding a conversation on the subject, but when we were engaged in some kind of relaxed conversation, going over international questions of the past and present, and when we would return to the subject of the path we had traveled during the war, that is what he said. When I listened to his remarks, I was fully in agreement with him, and today I am even more so."-Khrushchev, Nikita Sergeevich; Khrushchev, Serge (2004). Memoirs of Nikita Khrushchev: Commissar, 1918–1945. Penn State Press. pp. 638–639. ISBN 978-0271023328.

How much aid the U.S. has sent to Ukraine?
$76.8 Billion - Jan 24, 2022 - Jul 31, 2023

[duntez]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

"Proxy war" has been murdered as a term and its use in this conflict is stemmed in saving face, defeat, embarassment, and dishonesty.

It's been misused to the point of it not meaning anything now. When Ukraine started beating the dogshit out of Russia at the start of the invasion, Russia had to frame it in an alternative way: "No, it couldn't possibly be Ukrainians beating us - that's too embarassing, we're mighty Russia and better than everyone, Русский Мир. Ok let's say it's the Americans - NATO soldiers and armor in Ukraine, let's push that down our subjects' throats, half of them were born in the Soviet Union afterall, they'll believe it."

Simply helping a country with weapons, equipment and training does not constitute a proxy war - which is when you instigate a war and/or control the actions of another country in war but you're not doing the actual fighting. Anyone who says this is a proxy war is one of the following:

- Ignorant of what the term is
- Dishonest

The US did not instigate this in 2014, Ukrainians didn't need help throwing Yanukovich out on his ass. The concept of the Ukrainian presidency being totally controlled by a different country (Russia) was enough and pissed a lot of people off. Russia did this to themselves, got caught, and now have a legendary case of sour grapes made worse by failing to erase Ukraine as a country afterwards.

Nah man, to say that there was no western influence in this conflict is like you said - dishonest. West always supported pro west parties in UA… and no, not simply because they cared so much about Ukrainians, but mostly to fuck with Russia. I mean in US military doctrine Russia was always an “enemy” number one ( right?) and what you want to do with this states, right, to weak them any way possible. I think just recently they made China priority number one now. ( to which Chinese WTF,ed!.? so hard ) Without western influence this maidan BS would not grow to the point it did. After all, agreements were signed with opposition and Yanukovich, western countries sealed the deal and opposition breaks the promise next day, those western countries did what, right, recognized new so called parliament and disregard that agreement they signed prior to that. Total mockery and fuckery with Russia. And that’s not just me, look what western politicians are saying…not those who holds the power and follow narrative, but those in opposition, or ex politics of different nations and positions. They all agreed hat west, by calling UA to NATO in 2008? And since then always tried to fuck with Russia, because they knew what Ukraine means to them. I honestly think, that when they have realized back in 2014 that they managed to pull this of with Ukraine they thought it was the biggest win vs Russia since USSR broke up.

Yanukovich was a criminal, but look Whats going on with UA politicians now…money laundering and total corruption DURING WAR…I mean it’s got so bad, that even US can’t keep silence and was forced to send more people to US embassy try to find where are the money going. Ex minister or UA defense Reznik….gosh, everyone knows he was money laundering in millions …and what happened , not only he didn’t get a jail time, but from what I herd he wants to become a diplomat in UK? God dam…all of this, ALL makes Yanukovich a fucking child, because at least he didn’t steal during war time. Why am I saying all of this…because if this is so bad( and it’s much worse than it was during Yanukovich) ..people need to do Maidan. And without media support in the west, without political support from the west, without so to say command it’s hard to believe it will happen.

[RaNer]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

Nah man, to say that there was no western influence in this conflict is like you said - dishonest. West always supported pro west parties in UA… and no, not simply because they cared so much about Ukrainians, but mostly to fuck with Russia. I mean in US military doctrine Russia was always an “enemy” number one ( right?) and what you want to do with this states, right, to weak them any way possible. I think just recently they made China priority number one now. ( to which Chinese WTF,ed!.? so hard ) Without western influence this maidan BS would not grow to the point it did. After all, agreements were signed with opposition and Yanukovich, western countries sealed the deal and opposition breaks the promise next day, those western countries did what, right, recognized new so called parliament and disregard that agreement they signed prior to that. Total mockery and fuckery with Russia. And that’s not just me, look what western politicians are saying…not those who holds the power and follow narrative, but those in opposition, or ex politics of different nations and positions. They all agreed hat west, by calling UA to NATO in 2008? And since then always tried to fuck with Russia, because they knew what Ukraine means to them. I honestly think, that when they have realized back in 2014 that they managed to pull this of with Ukraine they thought it was the biggest win vs Russia since USSR broke up.

Yanukovich was a criminal, but look Whats going on with UA politicians now…money laundering and total corruption DURING WAR…I mean it’s got so bad, that even US can’t keep silence and was forced to send more people to US embassy try to find where are the money going. Ex minister or UA defense Reznik….gosh, everyone knows he was money laundering in millions …and what happened , not only he didn’t get a jail time, but from what I herd he wants to become a diplomat in UK? God dam…all of this, ALL makes Yanukovich a fucking child, because at least he didn’t steal during war time. Why am I saying all of this…because if this is so bad( and it’s much worse than it was during Yanukovich) ..people need to do Maidan. And without media support in the west, without political support from the west, without so to say command it’s hard to believe it will happen.

Man, there were so many videos of what was happening in that time span 2008-2014, they literally would put Russians on fire and piss on them, tie them up on poles and beat them senseless. And it would be removed from YT and other media. Same as those Ukraine "sieg heil" schools.

It's just impossible to have real talk with them and that's it. Just plain ignorance.

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

Nah man, to say that there was no western influence in this conflict is like you said - dishonest. West always supported pro west parties in UA… and no, not simply because they cared so much about Ukrainians, but mostly to fuck with Russia.

Don't put words in my mouth - you're not Faust. I didn't say there was no influence - only that the US did not instigate this. These are two different things - it's very clear Ukrainians by themselves did not want to be controlled by another country and let it be known.

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

and no, not simply because they cared so much about Ukrainians, but mostly to fuck with Russia.

Perhaps I was unclear earlier about US <-> Ukraine friendship earlier. The glue that helped make that happen was a mutual hatred for Russia combined with who is head of Russia. Plus, there are some similarities in how the US and Ukraine formed.

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

I mean in US military doctrine Russia was always an “enemy” number one ( right?) and what you want to do with this states, right, to weak them any way possible.

Yes, and especially during the Cold War. Since Putin decided he's modern Peter the Great, he earned a spot on the dictators-with-zero-good-intentions list. Anyone reasonable and with the ability to, should fuck with him.

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

Without western influence this maidan BS would not grow to the point it did.

US encouraged it after the fact, because we knew what Putin was trying to do and if he succeeded it meant much worse things. His cards were on the table, clearly. Why would we let him destabilize the entire region of eastern Europe when we had the power to curb it? But as for Maidan happening in the first place, it's pretty obvious that was a Ukrainian movement and any other take is an attempt for Russia to play the victim and not take responsibility for the poor choice they made.

Also - if we had such a heavy hand "making" Maidian happen, then why didn't we incubate these interests later by doing pretty much nothing when Russia annexed Crimea. That makes zero sense.

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

but look Whats going on with UA politicians now…money laundering and total corruption DURING WAR…I mean it’s got so bad, that even US can’t keep silence and was forced to send more people to US embassy try to find where are the money going.

None of this has any bearing whatsoever on an invasion of Ukraine being justified. War and corruption go hand in hand, that's the way it's been in history everywhere. Because some politicians are pocketing some cash doesn't mean Ukraine deserves to be deleted. Not sure where you're going with that, it's irrelevant.

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Anyways.............

Vlad Vexler's take on Putin and how he may use Israel/HAMAS in his favor.