[pervM]

I wonder if Azov troops were used as sacrifical meat shield so the troops in North-Eastern Ukraine could conquer back areas while the brunt of the russian attack was slowed down in the South. Azov is the awkward battallion of ultra-nationalists with swastika tattoos which makes foreign relations very awkward for Ukraine. So have to wonder if the ukrainian government deemed them as an expendable force.

Similarly to how back in the olden days mercenaries were usually put in frontlines because they were paid after battles, not before them. So they would be ideal meat shields and if more of them would die, less the lord/king/general had to pay them.

[Faust]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

On May 17th the ISW said: "Mariupol defenders trapped in the Azovstal Steel Plant likely surrendered after Ukrainian officials negotiated evacuation measures with the Kremlin."

On May 18th they said: "Russian and proxy authorities in Mariupol are struggling to establish coherent administrative control of the city."

On May 20 they said: "Russian sources may be overstating the number of Ukrainian defenders who have been evacuated from Azovstal to either maximize the number of Russian prisoners of war who may be exchanged for Ukrainian soldiers or to avoid the embarrassment of admitting they have been locked into a months-long siege against only “hundreds” of Ukrainian soldiers."

Kind of unclear, they seem to use "surrender" and "evacuate" interchangeably. When all this was happening I was being told that most of the buses ended up in Ukraine with two going to the DNR. It would seem now that all of them went to the DNR but Azov and UN got some guys at Azovstal out to Ukraine in the days before this happened. From what I can gather, the ones that were "smuggled" out to Ukraine were some particularly valuable guys, valuable to Russia if captured.

Still is very much propaganda. Again, not an insult to you I understand you are just reposting what you read.

When a flood came I was actually evacuated. That didn’t mean I had to lay down my arms, nor that I was put in criminal jail afterwards.

If the IFW thinks what happened is evacuation, what do they rank as ‘surrender’? The hundreds of soldiers that shoot themselves in the head after they come home from a war each year?
This is ridiculous

[Faust]

Originally Posted by pervM ↗

I wonder if Azov troops were used as sacrifical meat shield so the troops in North-Eastern Ukraine could conquer back areas while the brunt of the russian attack was slowed down in the South. Azov is the awkward battallion of ultra-nationalists with swastika tattoos which makes foreign relations very awkward for Ukraine. So have to wonder if the ukrainian government deemed them as an expendable force.

Similarly to how back in the olden days mercenaries were usually put in frontlines because they were paid after battles, not before them. So they would be ideal meat shields and if more of them would die, less the lord/king/general had to pay them.

They are the white supremacist version of the western backed Muslim extremists that would become ISIS. They didn’t want another isis on their hands. Also they were trained to take out the Ukrainian government should they not comply with US directive

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Originally Posted by pervM ↗

I wonder if Azov troops were used as sacrifical meat shield so the troops in North-Eastern Ukraine could conquer back areas while the brunt of the russian attack was slowed down in the South. Azov is the awkward battallion of ultra-nationalists with swastika tattoos which makes foreign relations very awkward for Ukraine. So have to wonder if the ukrainian government deemed them as an expendable force.

The general mood within Azov is that Zelensky hates them, and was lying when he said he was doing everything to "save the defenders of Mariupol". This friction started before the war.

A lot of countries don't like the fact that Azov exists. Despite the fact that they are still an effective force fighting for Ukraine who they support. It complicates things obviously.

Faust you're not going to get a more sobering western opinion than ISW, at least one who knows what they're talking about. They literally don't even talk about war crimes. They're not CNN or MSNBC who just lap up anything that Zelensky does because they love him. They're not Fox News or any of the other conservative institutions, who still largely support Ukraine. ISW looks at conflict and gives a calculated opinion, they took a lot of flak when they criticized the foreign policy practices of Bush, Obama and Trump. There's a reason why ISW is often cited at the US's war colleges, they don't seem to care who their opinion offends. They don't seem to give a shit about politics. That's why I value their opinion.

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Faust do this: Take the above ISW report and substitute "Russia" with "Ukraine" and tell me what you think of the report.

[Faust]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

Faust do this: Take the above ISW report and substitute "Russia" with "Ukraine" and tell me what you think of the report.

It is the same propaganda; the goal is more military aid. So:
enemy weak, the to be armed forces strong and resilient, having a chance… if only more guns get sent. It is NOT a losing battle they have 100% chance of defeating enemy if only we could give them even more guns! Because the enemy is so weak and disorganised and not gaining any ground we HAVE to send more weapons.

Everything USA government funded is propaganda. Otherwise it’s Guantanamo for the journalists

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

It is the same propaganda; the goal is more military aid. So:
enemy weak, the to be armed forces strong and resilient, having a chance… if only more guns get sent. It is NOT a losing battle they have 100% chance of defeating enemy if only we could give them even more guns! Because the enemy is so weak and disorganised and not gaining any ground we HAVE to send more weapons.

Everything USA government funded is propaganda. Otherwise it’s Guantanamo for the journalists

I guess this can be moved to the discussion thread?

That's not at all what the ISW article even remotely says, but ok... good conversation. Maybe you can try again? US journalists can say all they want, they absolutely can, they just might get harassed by the other side and an opinionated neighbor. In Russia you lose your career, get demonized by everyone and if you get too opinionated and powerful you get a nice bullet or poisoning, your guess if it's polonium or something else. Yes, that's a clear thing in Russia. You lack of knowledge of this country and its leadership is dreadful

[duntez]

Originally Posted by silver bullet ↗

Journalists can say what they like? Oh really? So what about Julian Assange and Wikileaks?

Lmao ain’t that an example.
Russia had freedom of speech and still has it. Examples like Navalniy and Assange is just a prove whenever you try to overthrown elites, they will fire back. BTW what happened to that organization and their leader who posted dairy of Bidens daughter where she said she took a shower with her dad and iT was inappropriate LOL OUR PRESIDENT!!!! Jesus Christ
Russia had bunch of radio stations and some TV channels sponsored by the WEST where they would literally TRASH Russia all day long. Most of the Russians coudnt even understand why this channels are allowed to even exist. Only After invasion they closed them down. Hey, during war times don’t you dare talk shit about army, I can’t blame them.

[duntez]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

On May 17th the ISW said: "Mariupol defenders trapped in the Azovstal Steel Plant likely surrendered after Ukrainian officials negotiated evacuation measures with the Kremlin."

On May 18th they said: "Russian and proxy authorities in Mariupol are struggling to establish coherent administrative control of the city."

On May 20 they said: "Russian sources may be overstating the number of Ukrainian defenders who have been evacuated from Azovstal to either maximize the number of Russian prisoners of war who may be exchanged for Ukrainian soldiers or to avoid the embarrassment of admitting they have been locked into a months-long siege against only “hundreds” of Ukrainian soldiers."

Kind of unclear, they seem to use "surrender" and "evacuate" interchangeably. When all this was happening I was being told that most of the buses ended up in Ukraine with two going to the DNR. It would seem now that all of them went to the DNR but Azov and UN got some guys at Azovstal out to Ukraine in the days before this happened. From what I can gather, the ones that were "smuggled" out to Ukraine were some particularly valuable guys, valuable to Russia if captured.

They were evacuated by surrender.

[Rfneimad]

ISW is really good, they disagreed with US YPG policy. They seemed to be annoyed Azov held out so long. Everyday it was like, Mariupol, tomorrow it's gonna fall and then the next issue it was like those fuckers are still there dammit!

Jomini is better though, he seems to have some real connections and has the sexiest maps. And I love this new OMG term.

"6/ The Russian MoD allocated a small operational maneuver group (OMG) of its most capable forces to punch through the secondary Popasna defensive line and exploit this breach toward Soladar in the west and Lysychansik to the north, likely with the intent of forming a cauldron."