[woodsetton]

I was raped when I was 17 and let me tell you, the long-term damage is very real. I'm 30 now and after 7 years with my boyfriend I can just about say that I trust him if we're having sexual contact.

As for the morality thing, I guess some woman get into situations with men where at some point they realise they're in over their heads and don't want to continue but surely if the man does carry on while she is saying no then he has raped her and should be punished.

[el_topo]

Originally Posted by andersveg ↗

The Kosmetics Killer totally agrees with the barrister in the original post.

I'm giving a voice to the voiceless, by saying: " NO MEANS NO, YOU STUPIDMOFO, go screw your own mama's corpse!"

[daughterofthenight]

What she doesn't seem to get is that you can take all the precautions and STILL BE RAPED.

The blame lies ENTIRELY ON THE RAPIST and no other.

Why?

Because if you were drunk, naked, and passed out in a dark alley, a normal man would see you, feel concern, cover you, and seek help for you. A rapist would rape you. A rapist is NOT normal.

So in no way can we blame we blame a victim, EVER.

[DiamondSmiles]

Originally Posted by woodsetton ↗

I was raped when I was 17 and let me tell you, the long-term damage is very real. I'm 30 now and after 7 years with my boyfriend I can just about say that I trust him if we're having sexual contact.

I'm sorry to hear that, woodsetton

[realitynoshow]

This is making me think of this article wherein the author urged young women to take responsibility for their personal safety. Here's an excerpt:

A 2009 study of campus sexual assault found that by the time they are seniors, almost 20 percent of college women will become victims, overwhelmingly of a fellow classmate. Very few will ever report it to authorities. The same study states that more than 80 percent of campus sexual assaults involve alcohol. Frequently both the man and the woman have been drinking. The men tend to use the drinking to justify their behavior, as this survey of research on alcohol-related campus sexual assault by Antonia Abbey, professor of psychology at Wayne State University, illustrates, while for many of the women, having been drunk becomes a source of guilt and shame. Sometimes the woman is the only one drunk and runs into a particular type of shrewd—and sober—sexual predator who lurks where women drink like a lion at a watering hole. For these kinds of men, the rise of female binge drinking has made campuses a prey-rich environment. I’ve spoken to three recent college graduates who were the victims of such assailants, and their stories are chilling.

Let’s be totally clear: Perpetrators are the ones responsible for committing their crimes, and they should be brought to justice. But we are failing to let women know that when they render themselves defenseless, terrible things can be done to them. Young women are getting a distorted message that their right to match men drink for drink is a feminist issue. The real feminist message should be that when you lose the ability to be responsible for yourself, you drastically increase the chances that you will attract the kinds of people who, shall we say, don’t have your best interest at heart. That’s not blaming the victim; that’s trying to prevent more victims.

Experts I spoke to who wanted young women to get this information said they were aware of how loaded it has become to give warnings to women about their behavior. “I’m always feeling defensive that my main advice is: ‘Protect yourself. Don’t make yourself vulnerable to the point of losing your cognitive faculties,’ ” says Anne Coughlin, a professor at the University of Virginia School of Law, who has written on rape and teaches feminist jurisprudence. She adds that by not telling them the truth—that they are responsible for keeping their wits about them—she worries that we are “infantilizing women.”

As a woman in her 30s who spent more than one night in the "grey area" of consent as a heavy partier in her early to mid 20s, I must say I wholeheartedly agree with it. It's a big bad world out there. Everyone needs to take responsibility for their own safety. There will be times when your friends, your family, your partner, your support system isn't there. There will be moments when you're alone and vulnerable in this world. Everyone should be aware of this fact and live defensively. Does this mean that if you get so shitfaced you black out you deserve to get raped? Absolutely not. Does this mean that you should be blamed for someone else's predatory actions? Absolutely not. Does this mean that you perhaps behaved irresponsibly and with a disregard for your general personal safety? Absolutely.

Twelve years ago I walked home alone from the subway in a very bad neighborhood at 5 am. I wanted to take the train with my friend so I took a line that was further from my home than the one I normally took. I walked further than I needed to. I sensed something was awry, considered walking past my home to an open corner store on the next block. I talked myself out of it, told myself I was being paranoid. As soon as I put my key in the lock of the front door of my apartment building a man pulled a gun on me and forced me to take him up to my apartment. Long story short I was sexually assaulted and very nearly raped at gunpoint. The youthful lack of caution that got me into that situation thankfully also got me out as I was blessedly able to fight him off, gun and all.

Did I deserve what happened to me? Was it my fault that this person chose me as his third victim that night? No. Were there things I could have done to have prevented this from happening? Yes. Does this make me morally responsible for his crime? Nope.

I think the Slate piece addresses this situation and the concept of personal responsibility much more wisely than the barrister. Young women who have been raped shouldn't be chastised, but every young woman regardless of her personal history should be educated about street smarts and responsible drinking.

Also the bar stool analogy is, indeed a fallacious analogy just like most of the others that are in this thread. I kind of just wanted to point that out because I love using the phrase "fallacious analogy". But come on, if you are walking around a deserted and unfamiliar neighborhood in Baltimore at 3 am and you get jumped and robbed, it's not your fault, but anyone within their right mind would probably point out that the beating could have been avoided by behaving a bit smarter. It doesn't make what happened any less terrible. It's the same with a girl getting blackout drunk at a frat party. We can only "take back the night" when the bad guys are forced to give it back to us by a fundamental change in the way our society operates and addresses these issues.

[Blewvane]

Originally Posted by Broadjumper ↗

"So if you fall off a bar stool and hit you[r] head and have a seirous brain injury because you’re drunk people are gong to say, well you chose to be drunk."

Yes.

[Blewvane]

Originally Posted by Broadjumper ↗

You can argue all day about contributing factors or how unwise or even negligent the victim was in their conduction leading up to the attack and even their morality.

That's what i have been doing.

Originally Posted by Broadjumper ↗

.... but none of this is a legal defense to sexual assault because ultimately the perpetrator made the choice to carry out the assault.

Nowhere have i stated there is a legal defence to sexual assault.

Originally Posted by Broadjumper ↗

At best, all that can be argued is that the victim may have been able to avoid the attack if the victim had made different [not necessarily better] choices.

Once again, that is what i was doing.

Go back to the post you quoted and read it again. What was the first thing i said?

[daughterofthenight]

Originally Posted by realitynoshow ↗

This is making me think of this article wherein the author urged young women to take responsibility for their personal safety. Here's an excerpt:


As a woman in her 30s who spent more than one night in the "grey area" of consent as a heavy partier in her early to mid 20s, I must say I wholeheartedly agree with it. It's a big bad world out there. Everyone needs to take responsibility for their own safety. There will be times when your friends, your family, your partner, your support system isn't there. There will be moments when you're alone and vulnerable in this world. Everyone should be aware of this fact and live defensively. Does this mean that if you get so shitfaced you black out you deserve to get raped? Absolutely not. Does this mean that you should be blamed for someone else's predatory actions? Absolutely not. Does this mean that you perhaps behaved irresponsibly and with a disregard for your general personal safety? Absolutely.

Twelve years ago I walked home alone from the subway in a very bad neighborhood at 5 am. I wanted to take the train with my friend so I took a line that was further from my home than the one I normally took. I walked further than I needed to. I sensed something was awry, considered walking past my home to an open corner store on the next block. I talked myself out of it, told myself I was being paranoid. As soon as I put my key in the lock of the front door of my apartment building a man pulled a gun on me and forced me to take him up to my apartment. Long story short I was sexually assaulted and very nearly raped at gunpoint. The youthful lack of caution that got me into that situation thankfully also got me out as I was blessedly able to fight him off, gun and all.

Did I deserve what happened to me? Was it my fault that this person chose me as his third victim that night? No. Were there things I could have done to have prevented this from happening? Yes. Does this make me morally responsible for his crime? Nope.

I think the Slate piece addresses this situation and the concept of personal responsibility much more wisely than the barrister. Young women who have been raped shouldn't be chastised, but every young woman regardless of her personal history should be educated about street smarts and responsible drinking.

Also the bar stool analogy is, indeed a fallacious analogy just like most of the others that are in this thread. I kind of just wanted to point that out because I love using the phrase "fallacious analogy". But come on, if you are walking around a deserted and unfamiliar neighborhood in Baltimore at 3 am and you get jumped and robbed, it's not your fault, but anyone within their right mind would probably point out that the beating could have been avoided by behaving a bit smarter. It doesn't make what happened any less terrible. It's the same with a girl getting blackout drunk at a frat party. We can only "take back the night" when the bad guys are forced to give it back to us by a fundamental change in the way our society operates and addresses these issues.

And when will men be held at fault as being responsible for their own victimization in any crime? They aren't. Only women are. Women are constantly told that we deserved what we got and it's our own fault. Ever heard a man be told he was responsible for his rape?

There is no doubt that anyone can put themselves in a bad situation, but only women will be blamed for it.

[St. Geno]

I kinda want to rape that lady in the photo

[realitynoshow]

Originally Posted by adhOLapbNwaST! ↗

And when will men be held at fault as being responsible for their own victimization in any crime? They aren't. Only women are. Women are constantly told that we deserved what we got and it's our own fault. Ever heard a man be told he was responsible for his rape?

There is no doubt that anyone can put themselves in a bad situation, but only women will be blamed for it.

I don't know if I fully agree with this. Women are sometimes maligned and told we "get what we deserve" and men often get let off the hook with a lazy eye roll and a "boys will be boys" sigh. Still, I can think of tons of examples where this isn't the case. A male friend of mine runs his mouth, talks shit to the wrong guy at a bar, and gets punched in the face? Everyone usually agrees he had it coming and tells him as much. I think men get called out just as often, if not more frequently than women. We are totally societally infantilized.

When someone uses the word "victim" it almost always has a female connotation even though it's not an innately engendered word. Men don't have to contend with these sorts of dialogues of "victimization" and other crap. It's almost as if men are part of things that happen and women have things happen to them. It's supremely frustrating and total bullshit. As if we are passive participants in a world where men are active.