[OhJstFkOffAlrdy]

Originally Posted by 30564U ↗

most often shooting victims tend to linger more with a small caliber wound unless he hit his heart dead center.

From the way it sounds in the story and the usual range of motion one has when handcuffed behind the back, I'm guessing that he did indeed hit his heart in a pretty bad way. The wound path, according to the coroner's report, went from his back to his shoulder. If that's his lower back and one of the wounds was enough in his front to make the pathologist think that he was shot in the front, then that would put the heart right in the path of the bullet.

[Oswald2001]

My gut reaction was that a Ghetto Thug Trayvon Martin accidentally self-Zimmerman'd while trying to hide a gun.

Hopefully, this will become a national trend.

[30564U]

Originally Posted by Metal Mike ↗

From the way it sounds in the story and the usual range of motion one has when handcuffed behind the back, I'm guessing that he did indeed hit his heart in a pretty bad way. The wound path, according to the coroner's report, went from his back to his shoulder. If that's his lower back and one of the wounds was enough in his front to make the pathologist think that he was shot in the front, then that would put the heart right in the path of the bullet.

I'm just thrilled that you and some others are actually discussing this shooting in a logical emotionless agenda free way. The fact that you're getting into the various ways (however odd in this case) in which this guy could've actually shot himself instead of just blaming the local coppers or initiating a vast conspiracy theory is wonderful. I only wish others would look at the total incident instead of just running to blame the police.

[OhJstFkOffAlrdy]

Most cops wouldn't be stupid enough to risk their careers, their freedom, or their lives over a suspected perp who they picked up on simple possession charges. I can see police brutality as being within the realm of possibility, but you'd have to be an idiot of astronomical proportions to try to get away with killing a dude in handcuffs in the back of your own patrol vehicle.

[30564U]

Originally Posted by Metal Mike ↗

Most cops wouldn't be stupid enough to risk their careers, their freedom, or their lives over a suspected perp who they picked up on simple possession charges. I can see police brutality as being within the realm of possibility, but you'd have to be an idiot of astronomical proportions to try to get away with killing a dude in handcuffs in the back of your own patrol vehicle.

Yup you're exactly correct...no cop would do that. To make the grand conspiracy that the police officers actually shot this guy possible, it would take a virtually impossible set of incredible circumstances to fall exactly into line at the correct time and place. It would also mean that several if not a dozen officers of all ranks to be involved and in on the conspiracy...all risking termination, criminal charges, and both Federal and State prison time. It goes back to Occam Razor...sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct explanation.

[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by 30564U ↗

As many of you here know, I have a fairly extensive background in investigating police use of force incidents and still testify in court cases as an expert witness. After looking at the facts of the case, both here and through other sources, it's an interesting case to be sure. Having said that, it's absolutely plausible that the two Officers completely missed a small concealed firearm after the two separate field searches. Officers miss weapons and evidence all the time...Hell, even I've missed fairly big stuff over the years. Don't forget we're talking a very small semi-auto firearm (say around 2 or 3 inches by 2 or 3 inches around and less than a half inch thick) in .25 caliber. Just because the suspect was handcuffed behind his back is no reason to doubt that he fully capable of shooting himself in the back or in a limited context in his chest. Handcuffed suspects are still potentially dangerous and, depending on their motivations, quite capable of injuring officers or escaping custody. I've seen first hand handcuffed individuals go through a restraint cage and actually drive away and steal a patrol car. It isn't that unusual for handcuffed folks to do all sorts of fun and intesting things that you wouldn't believe they're capable of doing. The odd thing here is that the local coppers failed to perform a Gunshot Residue Test on the suspect's hands...that simple and cheap test would have quashed most, if not all doubts, about this guy shooting himself. Retarded investigative techniques and policies do not a murder make. The other issue is that the medical examiner concluded (based on what I don't know) that the entrance wound was in the Suspect's chest and the exit wound was on or near the suspect's back. Usually you'll find fairly dense powder stippling or tattooing on an entrance wound fired at such a close range...but not always. Trust me, there are no hard and fast rules in dealing with homicides and use of force incidents. There are as many variations as their are people. Medical examiner's autopsy results are often not in complete agreement with police or detective reports...again inaccuracies and inconsistentcies do not a murder make. Medical examiner's are not automatically correct and police officers are not automatically correct...experts often disagree or have different opinions and different conclusions. This case is interesting, but it isn't beyond the realm of possibility of happening. I tend to go with the logical, less complicated explanation. Based on the evidence (and it isn't perfect evidence by a long shot) I'd say the suspect probably shot himself with a small concealable handgun that officers missed during two searches. I am a strong believer in Occam's Razor where, when you have two competing theories that make the same predictions, the simpler one is the better. We'll have to wait for more evidence to make a final determination.

that's more of a Hanlon's razor defense.... 'Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.'

however, the incident reveals one of two things: 1) incompetence 2) malice. simple as that. nobody is rushing to judgment, obviously. i never said it was murder, i just dont feel there is enough evidence (from what i've seen) to justify the suicide claim.

[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by Metal Mike ↗

...but next to no background in formatting paragraphs.

But seriously, couldn't it be possible that A.) The entrance and exit wounds of such a small-caliber round would be difficult for even a trained professional to distinguish; and B.) the dude was trying to ditch the weapon in the back seat of the patrol car and accidentally shot himself?

it very well could have been thatn. seems odd that he would have accidentally shot himself in the chest if he were trying to ditch the weapon. it's also interesting that the forensic pathologists stated that "the forensic pathologist found gunshot residue in the wound, but not the sort of stippling that a close-range shot can sometimes produce." seems interesting that his wounds would be inconsistent with him shooting himself.

it's very hard to tell the caliber of a weapon by the wound channel. i've watched a ton of ballistics tests youtube before i bought my last guns. you should take a look if your interested. they are simply showing how the ammo performs... but they give you measurements of the wound channel. if the round was a hollow point, it would be indistinguishable from a lot of higher caliber rounds, particularly higher caliber hollow points that break apart (though... one would assume they would remove the pieces and put them together to be able to id the round)

[OhJstFkOffAlrdy]

Originally Posted by Kanda444 ↗

it very well could have been thatn. seems odd that he would have accidentally shot himself in the chest if he were trying to ditch the weapon. it's also interesting that the forensic pathologists stated that "the forensic pathologist found gunshot residue in the wound, but not the sort of stippling that a close-range shot can sometimes produce." seems interesting that his wounds would be inconsistent with him shooting himself.

30564U already addressed that question, after I suggested that perhaps the entrance and exit wounds of such a small caliber round may be indistinguishable.

Originally Posted by Kanda444 ↗

it's very hard to tell the caliber of a weapon by the wound channel. i've watched a ton of ballistics tests youtube before i bought my last guns. you should take a look if your interested. they are simply showing how the ammo performs... but they give you measurements of the wound channel. if the round was a hollow point, it would be indistinguishable from a lot of higher caliber rounds, particularly higher caliber hollow points that break apart (though... one would assume they would remove the pieces and put them together to be able to id the round)

I don't think they make .25 in hollow point.

[Kanda444]

Also, lets not forget the fact that the police were apparently confused in the Facebook post.....they got a chest wound confused with a back wound. Lots of questions.

[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by Metal Mike ↗

30564U already addressed that question, after I suggested that perhaps the entrance and exit wounds of such a small caliber round may be indistinguishable.



I don't think they make .25 in hollow point.

Hornaday makes jacketed hollow points in .25 acp