Charleston Church Shooting: 9 Killed in What Officials Call a Hate Crime

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Metal Mike

Crazy is as crazy reasons. Roof may harbor feelings of great misanthropy and rage towards society and people in general, but that's only incidental to his actions in Charleston. His apparent motives as near as can be determined thus far were racial hatred and the calling of public attention to his beliefs; so it's not completely analogous to what motivated the likes of your typical "psycho" spree killers like Cho and Harris & Klebold in that simply murdering a group of people and then self-destructing was the means to as well as the ends of whatever it was that they felt they were trying to accomplish. On the one hand, there's the common thread of revenge against society or a particular demographic thereof; but on the other hand, Roof strikes me as considerably saner by comparison because unlike your typical self-fragging killing machines, he evidently never planned on overriding his own instinct for self-preservation.

What Roof did is more an act of social/political/racial/religious terrorism in that he wished to accomplish something beyond just the act itself, perhaps to effect change or spark a race war. It could also be that he was simply making a statement, but it's clear that he wants that statement to resonate. I'm sure personal notoriety has a lot to do with it, but it seems to me that it's simply a matter of having his own name attached to a cause that he believes in.

When I heard that he had managed to evade capture and was at large for a while, I knew that it wasn't just another self-destructive spree killer simply looking to go out in a blaze of blood and bullets. But again, I would consider neither him nor the other mass murderers I mentioned to be truly crazy. They're sane. They're just enraged, alienated, and -- at least in Roof's case -- "standing up for what they believe in." It's not as if God or some split personality told them to do it, so to me their "why's" are easily understood.

So Charles Manson was perfectly sane right? He wanted to start a race war too.

[OhJstFkOffAlrdy]

Originally Posted by TheVrist

I am glad you said this... As I knew you would. It is just proof how the media has portrayed every act of insanity to fit a particular profile that totally eliminates any potential for real underlying problems. Many of the so called "lone wolves" only asserted themselves into the accumulation of cause for their actions. Some of the most recent events of "lone wolf activity" produced little no connection other than their own purpose---alone.

Media hammers the idea their cause was for the act of Terrorism, because they focused on that psycho's particular obsessions, why? because it is/was hot topic. The same they are/will doing here, focus on the obsession that drove the episode. Other mass murderers with dull or mundane obsessions hardly were viewed or surfaced, if they were not a hot topic.

Just pay attention to how the events of alleged ISIS lone wolves, and now this racist radical's 15 minutes of fame unfolds. then reflect on the significant difference from numerous other mass murders. Most that didn't have a current hot topic attached to their driven obsession pre-event, they spent more time re-reeling the actual event, not so much his driving point.

I completely disagree with your first paragraph, since it's those very same underlying problems that drive a first-world citizen with a relatively safe and comfortable life to find common cause with such radical groups in the first place. Anyone who knows anything about the Middle East will tell you that the so-called War On Terrorism is not a battle between men, but between ideologies. The men and the means by which attrition is perpetuated are merely ballast when considered in light of the much firmer foundation of their beliefs. Ideology will always persist and outlast the organizations which are built upon them. Whether or not a lone wolf has any real connection to the groups they emulate is ultimately an academic point with regards to anything aside from perhaps logistics and material support. With regards to the end result, it makes little to no difference.

Mass murderers -- hell, all murderers and violent criminals in general -- are the products of the interplay between inherent temperament (which usually remains more or less consistent throughout a person's life), family environment, and social immersion (or the lack thereof); the cause is simply fuel for such an engine, much like any normal person's beliefs act as primary motivators to action. In fact, I consider a killer with a cause to be much more dangerous than one who acts out of psychopathy; because psychopathy has a dimension of heritability to it and thus cannot affect just anyone, but some beliefs can have a very destructive effect on even a sane man's capacity for guilt and empathy without which current data suggests psychopaths are born. In terms of sheer numbers, the former is much more common than the latter.

But you're right about one thing: being able to attach a well-known and hot-button cause to a spree killers' motivations is much more convenient than addressing the complex and nuanced societal factors that push unstable people over the line. All-consuming misanthrophy, bloodlust, and self-destruction are things which develop within a person over the course of a lifetime and for a variety of environmental reasons -- or, in some cases, for no real reason at all. Beliefs and ideologies, on the other hand, must by their very nature be packaged for easy consumption when their successful dissemination is the imperative, and sometimes it doesn't take much time or experience for a person to simply throw their lot behind an ideology and run with it; thus, they make for much better sensationalism, are easier to label as the be-all end-all root cause of violent acts, and are much easier to fit into a cable news timeslot.

[OhJstFkOffAlrdy]

Originally Posted by Top Gear

So Charles Manson was perfectly sane right? He wanted to start a race war too.

Manson was a narcissist, which is much closer to actual sanity than, say, paranoid delusional schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. The point is that such people are very much connected to reality in the ways that truly define what we call "sanity."

And yes, it may very well turn out that Roof has a serious thought disorder. He in all likelihood fits the bill for narcissism. But from what little actual information that's been released so far, I can't place my money on him being clinically crazy.

[TheVrist]

I completely disagree with your first paragraph, since it's those very same underlying problems that drive a first-world citizen with a relatively safe and comfortable life to find common cause with such radical groups in the first place. Anyone who knows anything about the Middle East will tell you that the so-called War On Terrorism is not a battle between men, but between ideologies. The men and the means by which attrition is perpetuated are merely ballast when considered in light of the much firmer foundation of their beliefs. Ideology will always persist and outlast the organizations which are built upon them. Whether or not a lone wolf has any real connection to the groups they emulate is ultimately an academic point with regards to anything aside from perhaps logistics and material support. With regards to the end result, it makes little to no difference.

A suicide bomber that has lived the idealised way yes, and American recently converted one that completely lives outside of the idealistic doctrines of muslims all together, NO

Which in the case of the few "lone wolves" in america, most were found to be heavy alcoholics, drug users, and so forth. That just suggest they too became obsessed on a particular driving point.

The sandy hook guy himself became so obsessed with mass shooting, it became emotionally moving to act out the events. Something both psychopaths, and sociopaths both do when they "cross the line" they simply chase that high.

The manifestation is when they bump into a subject, an event that gives a slight emotional pulse, even anger is a high for them, they follow it, obsessively seeking more. It's like some guy fapping to porn, eventually seeing a couple do boring softcore shit, they click on more aggressive porn link, the new act makes them blow an amazing load, so they will exclusively watch that till the same cycle starts again. yes, I know a huge difference in comparisons, but I know you can relate, since you're at shemale porn level

[rob666]

Originally Posted by TheVrist

And most-if not all nutcases that went through with their insane acts build a false reality for themselves.

Let's face it, he was a REAL nutcase, that most likely used all this racial shit as a catalyst for his act.

If we account for all of the past mass shooters, they did the same shit, different obsessive causes. they all go through a period of manifestation before they come to the point of the act. This kid did the same thing, it just so happened to be a race thing.

Now saying media has any play? Well, that iS a probable thing to consider, considering the timing, and the subject of psychotic behavior.

The reality here though, he was fucking nuts, and the media should be focused on that, and less on rather it was a genuine hate crime. For all we know, we could have MORE people with the same fucked brains, sitting hovered over their PCs typing away about it, with CNN, MSNBC, FOX blaring in the background plotting the same shit.

Maybe even in this!! mwhahaahaha

To me it's nuts to think that there is even a remote possibility that sandy hook was a hoax involving actors. How detached from reality do you need to be to not understand the logistics and planning that would go into something like that?
But, to a LOT of people it's what really happened, because the government is planning to put them in FEMA camps and take away their guns.

So, how far is the jump from that train of thought to thinking "well, I better arm myself and prepare for war against the government ". For a lot of people this is where is gone.

This guy was a nutcase, but he was very deliberate and calculated with his actions. He had reasons that in his own mind that were legitimate.
He knew what he was doing was illegal, but he felt strongly enough in his convictions that he wanted to make a point.

[TheVrist]

Originally Posted by Metal Mike

Manson was a narcissist, which is much closer to actual sanity than, say, paranoid delusional schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. The point is that such people are very much connected to reality in the ways that truly define what we call "sanity."

And yes, it may very well turn out that Roof has a serious thought disorder. He in all likelihood fits the bill for narcissism. But from what little actual information that's been released so far, I can't place my money on him being clinically crazy.

He is a fine example of redefined psychological profiling. Like I mentioned in that one thread, when they started dishing muddled out definitions to sway big leagues names away from a sociopath, he was top of the list example of a sociopath.

[rob666]

Originally Posted by TheVrist

I'd fry him either way. Point isn't rather he should be excused for his actions at all. Point is, the media focus applying yet another stigma to an already diminishing social standing.

racist or not, mentally healthy people don't sit around doing drugs and plotting mass murders.

It gets into the definitions of mental disease.

What about the people that kill abortion doctors?
What about soldiers that kill in wars?
The people that execute condemned criminals?
The people that develop military technology?

How does a person decide it's justified to kill?

That's the problem with a lot of the rhetoric on the internet. It can take stupid or impressionable people and give them dangerous ideas.

[TheVrist]

Originally Posted by rob666

To me it's nuts to think that there is even a remote possibility that sandy hook was a hoax involving actors. How detached from reality do you need to be to not understand the logistics and planning that would go into something like that?
But, to a LOT of people it's what really happened, because the government is planning to put them in FEMA camps and take away their guns.

So, how far is the jump from that train of thought to thinking "well, I better arm myself and prepare for war against the government ". For a lot of people this is where is gone.

This guy was a nutcase, but he was very deliberate and calculated with his actions. He had reasons that in his own mind that were legitimate.
He knew what he was doing was illegal, but he felt strongly enough in his convictions that he wanted to make a point.

I never believed sandyhook to be a hoax. I can see how mentally these two can relate. they both first became obsessed on something, eventually living out their obsessions.

[TheVrist]

Originally Posted by rob666

It gets into the definitions of mental disease.

What about the people that kill abortion doctors?
What about soldiers that kill in wars?
The people that execute condemned criminals?
The people that develop military technology?

How does a person decide it's justified to kill?

That's the problem with a lot of the rhetoric on the internet. It can take stupid or impressionable people and give them dangerous ideas.

There USED to be a defining measure of mental capabilities, and how it could be classified to justify cause. (not justify any level of innocent by any means)

Impulsive, calculated, passionate etc. However all leads to many levels of mental disparities. Defining them in the past few decades has become hidden within social reforms to adjust laws as well.

A lot of mental illness cases go un-noticed because we have been trying to abolish the whole "insanity" excuse, along with "crimes of passion" etc. you see what I am saying?

[rob666]

Originally Posted by TheVrist

I never believed sandyhook to be a hoax. I can see how mentally these two can relate. they both first became obsessed on something, eventually living out their obsessions.

I know you didn't, but if you go in the conspiracy action there there's a whole slew of people that get irate of you try to question it at all

I dunno, it just seems like there are a lot of people out there, alex jones is only one, promoting ideas they know are bullshit to make a buck.
They're creating a lot of dangerous people in the process IMHO.

Just like you mention, the obsession, then they feel threatened, then they act on it.