[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by Shadedwill ↗

Ah a spiritual version of 'the world needs ditch diggers', if I may be a touch insensitive. Interesting thought.

all apes live in social groups and use them to aid in survival. in these ape groups, there are always those that lead and those that follow. government and religious entities that have control (leaders) and their followers or those being governed over (followers) are an over-exaggerated and fetishized version of this, it seems to me.

[Kelseecat65]

Originally Posted by Kanda444 ↗

i also feel that we are privileged to live in an age when we have enough evidence to know that evolution is a fact. past generations went on the information they had....and since they had little information, they filled in the gaps best they could. religion, i feel, is our first attempt at understanding the world around us... it's our first attempt at science. without religion, we wouldnt have science today. as religious ideas become antiquated, we should move on but religion shouldnt be forgotten... just not promoted as truth.

You really hit the nail on the head, every time!!

[Shadedwill]

Originally Posted by Kanda444 ↗

all apes live in social groups and use them to aid in survival. in these ape groups, there are always those that lead and those that follow. government and religious entities that have control (leaders) and their followers or those being governed over (followers) are an over-exaggerated and fetishized version of this, it seems to me.

Wrote a paper about that once, I'll try to find it. It might be back up north but you'd find it interesting.

[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by Shadedwill ↗

Wrote a paper about that once, I'll try to find it. It might be back up north but you'd find it interesting.

i would love to take a look at that

[TheVrist]

Originally Posted by Kanda444 ↗

i think religions and religious ideas are as natural as anything else... it's in our nature to assume a creator created us. i think if you have human minds, you will eventually get something like religion almost every time. evolution by natural selection is counter intuitive so it's (to me) no wonder why people have an easy time believing in creationism.

i also feel that we are privileged to live in an age when we have enough evidence to know that evolution is a fact. past generations went on the information they had....and since they had little information, they filled in the gaps best they could. religion, i feel, is our first attempt at understanding the world around us... it's our first attempt at science. without religion, we wouldnt have science today. as religious ideas become antiquated, we should move on but religion shouldnt be forgotten... just not promoted as truth.

Yea I get the natural aspect of mankind being like ants in a way. But now what leads to the unknown is what happens when we lose any of that natural draw to a higher power?

Science cant instill the fear in a mans heart to walk a productive life and co,exist with their fellow human. Sure we can write laws with science being factual proof as to why we should, but on a level within our minds science will never have its place.

Unless ofc, it involves getting in line at the pharmacy. Lol.

I love science, more than any religious doctorines and so forth, however science as wonderful as it is, could come back later and bite us in the ass.

I dont think "eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge" was literally a piece of fruit from gods little favorite bush. Or like most doctrines teach, it was gods way of testing his ruling, and the bitch was the first to sin. To me it's stating weak minded, and uncontrollable people should not seek or obtain such a poweful knowledge....

Using eve the woman would be a way of expressing weak mindedness since all women in those times were regarded that way..
Uncontrollable stated because eve disregarded law, ate from it.
Powerfull knowledge being stated by god chose that tree.

Anyway hard to get my point clear on this phone. But to me the bible is imo a (for their time) a very sophisticated and brilliant guide that proves over and over even as human beings, we are of many different levels of minds or spirits. And an established hierarchy is needed, or nothing but chaos would become of us.

[TheVrist]

Originally Posted by Kanda444 ↗

all apes live in social groups and use them to aid in survival. in these ape groups, there are always those that lead and those that follow. government and religious entities that have control (leaders) and their followers or those being governed over (followers) are an over-exaggerated and fetishized version of this, it seems to me.

But on a human tibal level, the established government had too put on a show of answering to a higher power to keep the common tribes people at bay....

What will happen to mankind few hundred years from now when our one government world has nothing but loaded guns pointing at the people, since no one believes in any sort of god anymore.

Sure it seems plausible everyone will just carry on forever with deep rooted morals, respect etc.... thing is most of us atheist were born and raised still within Christian type social standards. But every generation that passes those good morals seem to diminish, rapidly now with the networking of cross culturing exposure.

[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by TheVrist ↗

Yea I get the natural aspect of mankind being like ants in a way. But now what leads to the unknown is what happens when we lose any of that natural draw to a higher power?

Science cant instill the fear in a mans heart to walk a productive life and co,exist with their fellow human. Sure we can write laws with science being factual proof as to why we should, but on a level within our minds science will never have its place.

Unless ofc, it involves getting in line at the pharmacy. Lol.

I love science, more than any religious doctorines and so forth, however science as wonderful as it is, could come back later and bite us in the ass.

I dont think "eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge" was literally a piece of fruit from gods little favorite bush. Or like most doctrines teach, it was gods way of testing his ruling, and the bitch was the first to sin. To me it's stating weak minded, and uncontrollable people should not seek or obtain such a poweful knowledge....

Using eve the woman would be a way of expressing weak mindedness since all women in those times were regarded that way..
Uncontrollable stated because eve disregarded law, ate from it.
Powerfull knowledge being stated by god chose that tree.

Anyway hard to get my point clear on this phone. But to me the bible is imo a (for their time) a very sophisticated and brilliant guide that proves over and over even as human beings, we are of many different levels of minds or spirits. And an established hierarchy is needed, or nothing but chaos would become of us.

i think there is another way to look at it though....

consider that all apes live in a social structure and in that social structure, there is a leader. the leader is in control of the group and in the animal kingdom, the leader has to fight to maintain his superiority. humans are different though. we can manipulate others to gain and maintain control.

Humans have something known as Machiavellian intelligence...

In cognitive science and evolutionary psychology, Machiavellian intelligence (also known as political intelligence or social intelligence) is the capacity of an entity to be in a successful political engagement with social groups.

Also known as machiavellianism, it is the art of manipulation in which others are socially manipulated in a way that benefits the user.

now, combine that with the other trait that differentiates humans from other apes; our sense of self. while other apes have been taught sign language and can communicate with humans, they have yet to ask a human a question... that is to say, they seem to not grasp the idea that a human has information they dont. humans, however, understand that they are one being and another human is another being. we accept that another human can have information or knowledge we do not have access to (like when we listen to and trust a physicist or a doctor).

when you combine the two, you get the opportunity for something unique... the chance to control social groups through manipulation by extorting other's sense of self. that is to say, an individual in a group can gain social control by demonstrating intellectual superiority (which, since religious ideas were our first attempt at science, religious leaders or tribal shamans were held in high social esteem). religious leaders, shamans, witch doctors.... they all claim to have one thing the rest of us dont.... revealed wisdom about the universe.

this is a slippery slope. you will find very often that tribal shamans and witch doctors used illusions to sell their stories... then would instill fear in their followers and would offer their followers answers. it's a scam. and a very useful control tool. notice how closely religious entities and government entities have worked together. that isnt an accident.

as for morality, we all have instinctive morals. it's an evolutionary trait. you can see behaviors in animals that are very close to human morals, so obviously religion isnt needed to teach an animal morals. morals evolved from our empathy and empathy comes from our need to support our social groups, which in turn strengthens our chances of survival. for example, piranha are vicious killing machines when eating but they know instinctively that attacking fellow piranha isnt helpful in the survival of their species. while this isnt exactly morality, it does show a basis for empathy. more examples can be found as well.

the morals found in the bible are generally common knowledge or (and i mean this respectfully) they are added by the reader afterwards, similar to how you interpreted the creation story. you used examples from your experience to interpret the story... which means that you had the knowledge in you and made it fit to the story. you didnt get that information from the story itself. in this way, i see the bible as a form of 'cold reading'.

now, imagine that after years and years of human evolution (with humans living in tribes with real fear of dying from disease they knew nothing about and from predators in the wild), a human were to exploit this fear and claim to have a way to escape not only these horrors but the horror of death. they then claim that they talked to the creator. that this creator said it was watching over us and was judging us...that this judgement would result in punishment or reward after death. imagine the control that individual would have over the group. also imagine the affect (psychologically) that would have on ancient people... being told by another that they were being watched and judged constantly and (for the followers) not having any way to disprove this notion. we still have the propensity for this...

there have been experiments done where people are asked to complete a task honestly but are left unsupervised and given a chance to cheat. two groups of people are used; group A is in a room with a hidden camera (they dont know about)... group B is in a room with a chair they are told is haunted and are also watched on hidden camera (they also dont know about)... time and time again, group A will cheat overwhelmingly and group B will not. the only thing different about the groups is the idea that an invisible agent is watching.

we are hard wired to follow instructions and when we are introduced to the idea that an authority figure is all knowing and constantly watching us, we will respond in most cases 'just to be safe'

[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by TheVrist ↗

But on a human tibal level, the established government had too put on a show of answering to a higher power to keep the common tribes people at bay....

What will happen to mankind few hundred years from now when our one government world has nothing but loaded guns pointing at the people, since no one believes in any sort of god anymore.

Sure it seems plausible everyone will just carry on forever with deep rooted morals, respect etc.... thing is most of us atheist were born and raised still within Christian type social standards. But every generation that passes those good morals seem to diminish, rapidly now with the networking of cross culturing exposure.

the idea would be that by educating the masses and teaching them that they are born intrinsically moral, that their differences dont make them sinners but instead make them who they are, and empower women more (giving them control over their reproductive cycles), you would be able to teach the masses to become less and less reliant on governing entities and more self sufficient. replace indoctrination with actual education and teach children to choose to act morally, not because they will be rewarded later but because they will be rewarded instantly (emotionally). teach children that being wrong about something is a good thing and is the only way we learn... and most importantly, teach children that this is (to our knowledge) the only chance we will get to do the right thing is in their life, not the afterlife.

that would be the starting point and the idea would be a global paradigm shift that focused on humans instead of fetishizing power and control.

can humanity do this? i have no idea... but i feel we should try.

also, morals should change as time progresses. it used to be considered moral to treat minorities with disdain.... our morals (most of us) have progressed beyond that. morals are a plastic thing and should be able to adapt to different situations, i feel. so i would expect to see morality change over time in ways that seem uncomfortable to us now... image what colonial americans would think of internet porn, morally speaking now days, it's no big deal, it's assumed we all look at porn, and that we can all be moral people and still look at porn.

[TheVrist]

I can see what you're trying to say Kanda, but there is a difference between man, apes, and other various critters that find a common respect for each others livability through instinct.

Man kind I don't believe can follow that same trait through will power alone, especially with modern man's way of thinking. Or even under some taught ruling from government enforcement, or science.

And hand me down morals and such is being white washed with time, and idealism.

Man migrated for a reason, and its believed on a social level to escape oppressing rulers..

The idea was "there is no escaping god" but a free thinker can escape, or fight an oppressor. And I'm pretty sure, when free thinking people out weigh the now defeat-able oppressors (governemnt/science idealism) they will once again migrate..

[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by TheVrist ↗

I can see what you're trying to say Kanda, but there is a difference between man, apes, and other various critters that find a common respect for each others livability through instinct.

Man kind I don't believe can follow that same trait through will power alone, especially with modern man's way of thinking. Or even under some taught ruling from government enforcement, or science.

And hand me down morals and such is being white washed with time, and idealism.

Man migrated for a reason, and its believed on a social level to escape oppressing rulers..

The idea was "there is no escaping god" but a free thinker can escape, or fight an oppressor. And I'm pretty sure, when free thinking people out weigh the now defeat-able oppressors (governemnt/science idealism) they will once again migrate..

understand that my view of the future is an admittedly idealistic one... and one i find to be somewhat unreasonable. i love mankind but i find it hard to have a lot of hope for mankind's survival.

with regards to religion, i feel like hitchens did...

First I’ve said repeatedly that this stuff cannot be taken away from people, it is their favourite toy and it will remain so, as Freud said, it will remain that way as long as we’re afraid of death. Which is I think likely to be quite a long time.
Second I hope I’ve made it clear that I’m perfectly happy for people to have these toys and to play with them at home, and hug them to themselves and share them with other people who come round and play with the toys. That’s, absolutely fine. They are not, to make me play with these toys. I will not play with the toys. Don’t bring the toys to my house. Don’t say my children must play with these toys. Don’t say my toys, might be a condom, here we go again, are not allowed by their toys. I’m not going to have any of that.
Enough with clerical and religious bullying and intimidation.

baby steps and see where they go from there. for now, im content with getting religious bullying to stop. mankind's desire to be ruled or to be free isnt really something i have any influence over.

i do feel that mankind can live morally without governing. they do it all the time... governing is really an illusion in the sense of it maintaining a sense of morality. i mean, most dont commit crimes because they dont want to... not because of God or because of a government. however, there is a certain sense of security that people get from being governed (by god or government) and people are willing to sacrifice some self respect (in admitting that they can in fact do the right thing without being told or governed) for that sense of security. years and years of social conditioning is a hard thing to break free from.