[spills]

The naked man, who was obviously mentally ill, was murdered. In America, it might be acceptable to kill anyone who is a threat to your health, but in most parts of Europe, we are not cowards, so the officer should have disarmed him, moved out of theway, took him down with a shot to the knee/feet etc. But to mortally wound him? No. Not unless he had a gun also, and was about to kill.

[spills]

I meant ..should have EITHER disarmed him, moved out of the way, taken him down with a shot to the knee/feet etc.

[tedd1986]

Thats it ! We have other Laws in germany. This Cop is a Murder ( Do you write this in English so ?)

He will become what he deserves ! We in germany handle this thinks different. Sorry for my bad english !

[Feirefiz]

@ gatagato

Thank you for watching the video, considering my points and answering my post!

to surround him was the first step, to try to convince him to calm down and drop the knife was the second; the three patrols of police which intervened made both these steps, then one of them approached the man as he was bleeding from several self-inflicted stabs, to try to convince him to stop with no need to scream to communicate with him (and THAT fountain is noisy, i've been there dozens of times).

Yes, the (mostly) exact sequence of events was also in the newspapers and I'm with you at this point. Also concerning the fountains noise...^^

Another detail that is being totally overlooked is that according to german laws, self-defence right applies also to police officers.

According to the news, the one officer stepped in the pool with a baton in his hand. At this moment, the maniac was most likely laying on the ground of the pool. Between this and the shot, the officer drew his gun. Then - suddenly - the maniac stood up and went for the officer, who thrice asked him to put down his knive and then shot him dead.
The officer aimed the gun to the maniac's head, neck or upper torso.
Even maniacs have a right to self-defense and obviously the maniac had not hurt anybody so there was no reason to approach him with a gun.
The officer was stuck inside the pool without a chance to withdraw and this was his own mistake.

"A police officer may open fire to a person to prevent a crime or to prevent the use of firearms or explosive equipment by the person"

Yes, and the maniac did not plan any crime other than fend a guy who was pointing with a gun ad his head. As I said, it this cannot be repeated too often: There was no reason to pull the gun.

Those who are asking why "he didn't shot him in the leg" have NO CLUE what is being shown in the video, nor what means to make a decision in MILLISECONDS. All they'd be able to do under the same circumstances, is to shit their pants. And most likely get stabbed to death.

You're right. but for the whole time of the video the officer is poiting at the maniac's head. Are you trying to say, that the officer had MILLISECONDS to decide that a shot in the legs would be not sufficient and so shot in the maniac's lungs?

Wrong. That's his personal decision, and there's no mention of it in any manual in use to them but feel free to prove me wrong.

You have a very powerful point there...
Just ask a policeman if he is allowed to point his gun at someones head or what his trainer told him. Germany is not the Wild West and this officer in the (first) video exactly behaves like in a Wild West movie: Pull the gun, approach the guy and shoot him if he is fighting you.
This has, in my eyes, nothing to do with "self-defense".

in your opinion, what would have done the officer handling THIS gun if some of those nazis would have tried to crush the head of one of his colleaguaes with one of those baseball bats?

THIS officer is doing it wrong.

Where is he aiming at, at some knee?

Did you ask yourself, WHY he is doing it and WHY his trainer told him to do it?
Because there is a chance that a shot is set off unintentionally!
Did you notice that the officer puts away his gun in the very moment when one of the nazis kicks towards the camera?
Yeah, these must be somekind of specialists: It's all about de-escalation.

I'm curious about the end of the story.

[Feirefiz]

Originally Posted by cingdemz ↗

What is the shooting officer saying in the last part of the vid, giving his weapon to some other officer?

I just heard out " Kannst du mal meine Waffe...." Cannot understand the rest of the sentence he says while giving away his weapon. Any German here?

I think he says: "Nimmst du mal meine Waffe...ganz schnell?" ("Would you please take my gun...real quick?")
"...ganz schnell?" , btw, suggests that the other cop knew, what it was about.
I guess this is about concealing the gun for gathering of evidence. Must be a normal procedure when a cop fires his gun.

But a few moments later the cop is also shouting something. It sounds like: "Sanitäter!" ("Medic!")
Maybe this is also a normal procedure: The cop is checked for his health and this is alltogether written down in a report. (which then might go to the prosecution).

[gatagato]

Firefiz, thanks for your post and sorry for not replying before: you make a series of good points and let me say that from the moral standpoint i'm with you, we share almost the same mentality despite we seem to disagree on some points, i'll try my best to clarify my standpoint. There are two possible ways to look at this incident: the first one is to analyze what happend from the first call to 112 till the bitter end, the second one is to stick to the very last moments, from when the cop stepped into the fountain, till the end.
In the first case, there's a lot of facts still unclear and questions needing an answer:
a man needing psychiatric help, suffering from schizophrenia, highly aggressive (according to the prosecutor) ( link ), used to "smoke cannabis excessively" (not sure this worsened his situation, actualy maybe it helped) was free to circulate: fact.
What if he would start stabbing random people in Ku'damm at 8:00 pm, possibly with some machete, holding hostages, can you imagine? That cop, ended up in that fucked-up situation thanks to some lack of control, and since someone else did put him in such a shitty situation, his possible faults must be split with those responsible, to say the very least.
IF the commander in chief would have ordered to the cop to stay away from the fountain until the arrival of some squad equipped with non-lethal weapons like tasers or rubber bullets, what you see in the video never would have taken place. He didn't, it's up the prosecutor to find out the why.
Of course, something will CHANGE in their procedures, after this incident.

P.S.: GSG 9 would have solved the crisis using their naked hands.

[Feirefiz]

Yes, I also think it's crucial what happened in these few moments.
But step 1 is, in my eyes, much more crucial than step 2.
I watched the video again and I have to say that from the moment the video starts you can't blame the officer.
I imagine someone with an open stomach and the guts hanging out, maybe posting death threats againts me or something, is approaching me and I have a gun in my hand...I think I would react just the same - mostly out of emergency.
In this article, a commander in chief explicitly states that it is NOT possible to form "super-cops" that always react correctly.
And he says that the officers are NOT trained to aim at arms and legs for self-defense.
So this cop in this moment was in a very tense situation and reacted out of emergency.

But:
- How did he come to this place?
INSIDE the fountain?! BEHIND the wall?!
- Why did he pull the gun?
This is the most important question for me and the prosecution must answer this.
If they don't answer it, the police is only a bunch of dudes with guns anymore.
They'll lose all their integrity if it is okay to approach a man with this "What the fuck is he doing there?!"-mentality.
I just don't see the balance between
*being naked in public and hurting myself at the town hall*
and
*being shot*

You're right, they should ask the commander in chief.
In the end, it's, once again, bad training, incompetent commanders and too little money responsible for this...^^
But I have to say that I feel a bit sorry for the maniac.

What if he would start stabbing random people in Ku'damm at 8:00 pm, possibly with some machete, holding hostages, can you imagine?

This is, again, this very important point because he did not do these things!
Pulling the gun was not appropriate and this is why I wonder why this officer pulled the gun. He's simply not allowed to "hold other people at gun point".
There is a vast difference between self-defense, averting of danger, crime prevention and this one here!
The officer most likely stood ABOVE the maniac (because the maniac was laying at the ground) and - for any reason - pulled the gun.

I imagine a situation in which I tell this officer that his mother is a whore...
Would he point his gun at me and shoot me in "self-defense" if I approached him?

Of course, something will CHANGE in their procedures, after this incident.

I hope we get a discussion about this in Germany. For me personally it's even a bit stressful to know that someone was shot like this. I also feel bad for the officer although I guess they will back him.

Wikipedia says that about 500 people where shot by german policemen in the past 60 years. Apart from Benno Ohnesorg I don't know the background of any of these deads but, putting it solemnly, these are 500 too much.

I want a modern police that prevents crime in a grown-up and enlighted society and not a bunch of dudes with guns.

[jeppa]

"Messa weg, MESSA weg!!" Typical Berlin-slang

[Wardead]

I was just there at that same spot like 1 week ago

[sandman_47]

Shit