[kellyhound]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

This is why western governments allowed for civilian airlines to fly over active war zones IMO

I think these are the 2 reasons:

It’s likely no one thought planes flying that high were at risk, says Mikael Robertsson, a co-founder of FlightRadar24, a site that tracks planes around the world.

Malaysia Airlines had flown this route repeatedly over the past several weeks without incident, as had other carriers. When MH17 was shot down, it was right next to two other passenger planes operated by Air India and Singapore Airlines.

Plus, flying around Ukraine is a major pain: The country is right in the middle of a common direct route between Europe and southeast Asia. Longer routes mean more fuel and more chances for delays, so cost-conscious airlines avoid such maneuvers whenever they can.

[WonderMomma]

Originally Posted by kellyhound ↗

I guess they maybe talked about it 3 years after it happened, thinking it was a secure line like some prisoners tell about their previous crimes to other prisoners?

Did you ask chatgpt yet about who downed the plane etc?

[WonderMomma]

"Meanwhile, eyewitnesses in Germany saw a convoy of vehicles with Leopard tanks."

[WonderMomma]

(hit white arrow for OP)

Originally Posted by WonderMomma ↗

"Restoration and modernization of the T-72M1 Czech Excalibur Army for Ukraine"

"Additional footage of a T-72EA somewhere in Ukraine emerged recently as well, confirming deliveries into the country."

[WonderMomma]

(hit white arrow in quote for OP)

Originally Posted by WonderMomma ↗

"Today, a Canadian Air Force aircraft took off from Halifax, Canada with a Leopard 2 battle tank to Ukraine, Defense Minister Anita Anand said.

In total, Canada has promised to provide 4 such tanks."

"Wrocław Airport, Poland, Canadian personnel unload the first of four Canadian Leopard 2A4s donated to Ukraine. "

Anita Anand (https://twitter.com/AnitaAnandMP/sta...424046882817): "The first Canadian Leopard 2 main battle tank that we've donated to Ukraine has now arrived in Poland. Alongside our allies, we’ll soon be training the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the use of this equipment. "

[WonderMomma]

" This appears to be the first footage seen of the T-90S in combat so far, though not exactly the most glowing example.

Several destroyed units have been seen already in southern Ukraine. "

[WonderMomma]

Somewhere in the US on 7 February.

[WonderMomma]

There is a lot of talk of Russia possibly launching a huge new offense in the next 10 days.

1-2. "New Satellite Images (08-02-2023) from the Postoyalye Dvory Training Ground of Kursk Oblast.

This was used as a staging base last year to launch the invasion of Ukraine once again - movement & a military buildup in this area has been spotted."

3-4. "New military Encampment Postoyalye Dvory Training Ground - Kursk Oblast."

[Faust]

Originally Posted by kellyhound ↗

I think these are the 2 reasons:

“ Mikael Robertsson, a co-founder of FlightRadar24”

No surprise as to why he would be their primary source and authority lol

[WonderMomma]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

I know, I just added it for context.

so the take home message is

Putin is responsible for the July 17 2014 downing of a civilian airliner because… 3.5 years later he spoke on the phone to a guy that was there?

I can see why they suspended their investigation if this is the kind of evidence they can come up with.

RIP to the civilians that were forced to fly over an active warzone though

The take home message is that PERHAPS Putin is responsible due to his connection to Igor in the LPR.

And they weren't forced to fly over a warzone... planes flew that route often.

Articles

MH17 inquiry: 'Strong indications' Putin OK'd missile supply
Wed, February 8, 2023 at 8:11 PM EST

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — An international team of investigators said Wednesday it found “strong indications” that Russian President Vladimir Putin approved the supply of heavy anti-aircraft weapons to Ukrainian separatists who shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in 2014 with a Russian missile.

However, members of the Joint Investigation Team said they had insufficient evidence to prosecute Putin or any other suspects and they suspended their 8½-year inquiry into the shooting down that killed all 298 people on board the Boeing 777 flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

Russia has always denied any involvement in the downing of the flight over eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, and refused to cooperate with the international investigation.

Dutch prosecutors said that “there are strong indications that the Russian president decided on supplying” a Buk missile system — the weapon that downed MH17 — to Ukrainian separatists.

“Although we speak of strong indications, the high bar of complete and conclusive evidence is not reached," Dutch prosecutor Digna van Boetzelaer said, adding that without Russian cooperation, “the investigation has now reached its limit. All leads have been exhausted.”

She also said that, as head of state, Putin would have immunity from prosecution in the Netherlands. The team played a recording of an intercepted phone call in which they said Putin could be heard discussing the conflict in eastern Ukraine.

“Are we disappointed? No, because we think we came further than we had ever thought in 2014. Would we have liked to come further? Of course, yes,” said Andy Kraag of the Dutch police.

The team informed relatives of those killed in the downing of MH17 of their findings before making them public.

“There was disappointment because ... they wanted to know why MH17 was shot down," Kraag said. "We’re really clear on what has happened, but the answer to the question why MH17 was shot down still remains in Russia.”

Van Boetzelaer said that while the investigation is being suspended, phone lines will remain open for possible witnesses who may still want to provide evidence. If that happens, the inquiry could be reactivated.

Russian officials say that a decision to provide rebels with military support over the summer of 2014 was in Putin’s hands.

A decision to supply arms was even postponed for a week “because there is only one who makes a decision (…), the person who is currently at a summit in France,” the investigative team said, citing a phone conversation that was referring to Putin.

Prosecutors said that at the time Putin was at a commemoration of D-Day in France.

The announcement by the investigative team comes nearly three months after a Dutch court convicted two Russians and a Ukrainian rebel for their roles in shooting down the plane. One Russian was acquitted by the court.

None of the suspects appeared for the trial and it was unclear if the three who were found guilty of multiple murders will ever serve their sentences.

The convictions and the court's finding that the surface-to-air Buk missile came from a Russian military base were seen as a clear indication that Moscow had a role in the tragedy. Russia has always denied involvement. The Russian Foreign Ministry accused the court in November of bowing to pressure from Dutch politicians, prosecutors and the news media.

But the November convictions held that Moscow was in overall control in 2014 over the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, the separatist area of eastern Ukraine where the missile was launched. The Buk missile system came from the Russian military's 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade, based in the city of Kursk.

The Joint Investigation Team is made up of experts from the Netherlands, Australia, Malaysia, Belgium and Ukraine. Most of the victims were Dutch. It had continued to investigate the crew of the missile system that brought down the plane and those who ordered its deployment in Ukraine.

As well as the criminal trial that was held in the Netherlands, the Dutch and Ukrainian governments are suing Russia at the European Court of Human Rights over its alleged role in the downing of MH17.

The findings revealed Wednesday will likely strengthen the case at the human rights court and could also be used by prosecutors at the International Criminal Court who are investigating possible war crimes in Ukraine dating back to the start of the separatist conflict"

=====

MH17: Flying Over A Conflict Region Is A Common Practice For Commercial Airlines
07/17/14 AT 8:25 PM EDT

It sounds improbable: A commercial jet, loaded with passengers traveling from one international city to another, knowingly travels over a part of the map where armies with high-tech arsenals are actively seeking to destroy one another. Yet that scenario happens every day, as long-haul carriers seeking the shortest point between origin and destination fly over the world's many hot spots.

The fact that Malaysia Airlines flight 17, bound from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, was brought down by a missile strike in a field in eastern Ukraine amounts to an extraordinary event. The fact that it was there in the first place was standard operating procedure.

In a world in which global airspace is connected by more than 58,000 flight routes, commercial airliners travel through conflict regions every day, bringing people whose lives are confined to the relative peace of London, New York, Frankfurt and Tokyo directly over Libya, Afghanistan, Sudan and Ukraine.

“Flights over troubled regions are very common,” said Dave Powell, dean of Western Michigan University’s College of Aviation and a retired Boeing 777 captain at United Airlines. “Both governments and airlines take a look at the threats out there, of course. But when you’re trying to save money and competing against everyone else, my guess is, everybody is doing that kind of routing.”

Indeed, a search of flights on real-time airline tracking website Flightradar24.com shows dozens of airliners flying through conflicted areas in the Middle East, South Asia and Africa. At least two other commercial airliners were near MH17 when it crashed. Information on flightradar24.com showed that Singapore Airlines SQ351 (a Boeing 777) and Air India AI113 (a Boeing 787) were within about 15 miles of the #Malaysia Air flight when it lost contact with traffic controllers.

In some cases, national aviation authorities do ban their carriers from flying through certain regions. The U.S. Federal Aviation Administratin issued a “Notice to Airmen,” or NOTAM, in April prohibiting U.S. pilots and airlines from flying in the Crimea region of Ukraine due to disputes over who controlled air traffic in the area. But the site of Thursday’s crash was about 200 miles from that region.

The FAA issued an order on Thursday night prohibiting American aircraft from flying over eastern Ukraine following the downing of a Malaysia Airlines flight in that region. Late Thursday, the FAA expanded the restricted area to include the entire Simferopol and Dnepropetrovsk flight information regions.

Many aviation authorities take their cues from the International Civil Aviation Organization, the U.N.’s agency responsible for making recommendations for the safety of air transport. “Based on guidance from ICAO, a lot of regulators restricted flights around Crimea,” said Sean Cassidy, vice president of the Airline Pilots Association. “But at the end of the day, it’s up to individual countries to impose their rules.”

Airline industry analyst Robert Mann said that even if a civil aviation authority does not impose restrictions on a region, individual operators can and do sometimes choose not to fly through certain regions. “There’s no prohibition on using common sense,” he said. “Any individual operator, whether it’s a pilot or company dispatch, can exercise caution and not fly in an area they deem to be risky.”

When Mann was an executive at Tower Air in the 1990s, the airline refused to route its flights from Amsterdam to the Indian subcontinent via Iran. “The direct routing would have gone over Iran, but we took the fuel and operating cost penalties,” he said. After Thursday's crash, many carriers restricted flights over the airspace where MH17 was downed.

Last year, conflict in Syria prompted regional airlines including Qatar Airways and Saudi Airlines to reroute certain flights to avoid Syrian airspace. Lebanon’s Middle East Airlines, however, kept its routes over Syria.

“All airlines perform a risk assessment,” Powell said. “In the case of MH17, the air traffic controllers routing them that way probably didn’t think there was any threat. I’m sure this incident will now prompt commercial airlines to look at routes differently. Twenty-twenty hindsight is very clear.”

Not all airlines exercise the same level of caution. An anonymous pilot of a “major European airline” told the Guardian, “We would often avoid areas where there is air-to-air conflict, but we flew over Iraq and Afghanistan when the British and U.S. armed forces were deployed there, because only one side was using military jets. There will be weapons based on the ground when you are at 30,000 feet, but that is far up in the air. There are not many missile systems that can be so accurate.”