[kellyhound]

On the same day that Ukrainian lawmakers effectively moved to ban an entire branch of the Russian Orthodox Church, the leader of Bulgaria's Orthodox Church publicly weighed in with a critical opinion on the historic, and controversial, step.

The Ukrainian law, Patriarch Daniil said, subjects the Russian church to "serious factual and legal restrictions," amounting to a "discriminatory policy."

Daniil's public positions backing the Russian church had already raised eyebrows in Bulgaria. And Daniil is not the only one.

Last year, Bulgaria expelled three priests -- two Belarusians and one Russian -- employed by the Russian Orthodox Church, citing national security grounds.

In Ukraine, where Russia's all-out war stands at 30 months and counting, Kyiv's move against a branch of the Orthodox Church seen as loyal to Moscow was yet another watershed moment in a decades-long struggle to define Ukraine's Orthodox identity. Some saw it, or outright misconstrued it, as an attack on religious freedom.

But in a growing number of other countries, the Russian church is finding it difficult to continue its operations as more authorities turn a critical eye toward its presence -- under the argument that rather than being an exclusively religious, spiritual organization, it is instead an active tool of Russian government soft power.

"It has never been a secret that Russia uses the church and Orthodox values as a significant part of its foreign policy," said Vladimir Liparteliani, a scholar at Durham University in Britain who has researched the Russian Orthodox Church, sometimes referred to by the abbreviation ROC.

"When a state bans and restricts the influence of the ROC, it is essentially trying to reduce the impact of Russian soft power," he said. "Moreover, for many European states, it is critically important to address this issue because Russian religious and conservative narratives are highly anti-Western and anti-liberal, and their danger should not be underestimated."


Also: The Russian Orthodox Church Moscow Patriarchate (ROC MP), a Kremlin-controlled organization and a known tool within the Russian hybrid warfare toolkit, held the World Russian People’s Council in Moscow on March 27 and 28 and approved an ideological and policy document tying several Kremlin ideological narratives together in an apparent effort to form a wider nationalist ideology around the war in Ukraine and Russia’s expansionist future.

ROC MP Head Patriarch Kirill, reportedly himself a former Soviet Committee for State Security (KGB) officer and a known staunch supporter of Russian President Vladimir Putin, chaired the congress of the World Russian People's Council that approved the document, and Kirill likely coordinated the document’s ideological narrative and policy recommendations with the Kremlin.

The document, "The Present and Future of the Russian World,” addresses Russian legislative and executive authorities with specific calls to amend Russian policy documents and laws.

These calls are likely either an attempt to socialize desired Kremlin policies among Russians before their implementation or to test public reactions to policies that Kremlin officials are currently considering.

Putin and Kremlin officials have gradually attempted to elaborate on amorphous ideological narratives about the war in Ukraine and their envisioned geopolitical confrontation with the West since the start of the full-scale invasion, and the ROC MP appears to be offering a more coherent ideological framework for Russians.

The ROC MP released the document a week after the Crocus City Hall terrorist attack and roughly a month before the start of the Orthodox Easter Holy Week, and likely aims to seize on heightened anxieties following the terrorist attack and increased Russian Orthodoxy observance to garner support for its desired ultranationalist policies and ideological vision.
http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/6116189.html

So it's a very god idea to ban the russian Orthodox church. Should be in any country imo.

Also: February 21, 2022.
The United States has informed the United Nations it has credible information showing that Moscow is compiling lists of Ukrainians “to be killed or sent to camps following a military occupation,” according to a letter to the U.N. human rights chief obtained by The Washington Post on Sunday night.

The letter alleges that Moscow’s post-invasion planning would involve torture, forced disappearances and “widespread human suffering.”

Well we all read the stories about that.

The new warning comes after the Biden administration, amid weeks of speculation about President Vladimir Putin’s intentions in Ukraine, said late last week that the Russian leader had decided to launch an invasion.

Speaking to journalists on a daily call Monday, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov denied the letter’s claims. “Do you realize that this is an absolute canard, a lie? It is absolute fiction. There is no such list. It’s a fake,” Peskov said.

The Russian military’s targets would include Russian and Belarusian dissidents in exile in Ukraine, journalists and anti-corruption activists, and “vulnerable populations such as religious and ethnic minorities and LGBTQI+ persons.”

“Specifically, we have credible information that indicates Russian forces are creating lists of identified Ukrainians to be killed or sent to camps following a military occupation,” the letter said, adding that the Biden administration also had information indicating Russian forces would likely use “lethal measures” to subdue peaceful protests or other “peaceful exercises of perceived resistance from civilian populations.”

The Kremlin has denied that it plans to invade Ukraine and has accused the United States and Western governments of disseminating misinformation to destabilize the region.

Russia has amassed about 150,000 troops near Ukraine’s border while demanding that the United States provide guarantees that Ukraine will never become a NATO member, a request Washington has refused.

In 2014, the United Nations established a human rights monitoring mission for Ukraine, with a special focus on the disputed areas of the country’s east. The mission has offices in the capital Kyiv, Luhansk, Donetsk, Kharkiv and other cities.

In a report covering August through October 2021, the U.N. Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights cited increased civilian deaths and forced conscription, along with tighter restrictions of freedom of movement by authorities in Luhansk.

U.N. monitors also reported complaints of torture and arbitrary detention in separatist-controlled areas, along with a lack of access to detention sites for independent monitors.

[Faust]

So it's a very god idea to ban the russian Orthodox church. Should be in any country imo.

The same argument could be used for the banning of Zionist churches.

In any way, I have faith that “denazification” will bring an end to the Orthodox Church ban, and will restore the holy days back to the way the vast majority of Ukrainians have celebrated them their entire life

[Faust]

Btw Boris Johnson finally admitting it is a proxy war

[scorpion9]

Again that the praise, adoration as well as naming streets after war criminals specifically happened after 2014

You failed to understand my point once again. My point was that it doesn't matter if they name streets after people who fought for their country, as long as russia has statues and streets named after Stalin and as long as they praise Stalin, Ukraine can praise its versions of the same thing.
These street names are roughly the same thing as street names and statues built in the USA, honoring their "confederate generals". You can agree or disagree if its good or bad, but in any case, its strictly Ukrainian issue. Russia complaining about that and sending in its invasion force is like China starting a third world war because they think US shouldnt have confederate statues in some places and that US should have Chinese as its state language.
That would be stupid. If China did that then everybody would see that its a fucked up thing to do, because US is an independent country and its their decision to choose their policies. Russian nazis on the other hand dont understand the concept of independence. They have an imperial mindset where they believe that the whole world belongs to them. During riots many years ago( here in Estonia ), russian nazi groups were on the streets, looting and screaming their youth group slogan "vsjo nashi" - "its all ours". In their mind, they have an empire that has no borders. They can take what they want.

Merely pointing out that post-2014 Ukrainian national identity was created to appeal to far right groups.

And i said there is no post-2014 identity. What exactly is that identity supposed to be? A new language? A new history? A new nation? New people? No. Ukraine is still what it has always been. There is a reason why Bandera was popular during his lifetime....Ukrainians wanted independence already back then. Why? Because they had their own identity, they werent russians.

This is your opinion, not backed by anything; only a few countries in the world have sanctions against Russia

Not few, 50 at least. And these 50 are the largest economies in the world. And when it comes to supporting russia in the war, the number is so low that you can count the supporters on one hand. Russian invasion is not popular, its army and policies towards its neighbors have never been popular. So, yes, its my opinion, but im sure its the right opinion. Given a choice to disarm one of the 2 countries, Ukraine or Russia, most countries would disarm Russia, because its a threat. Noone saw Ukraine as a threat.

while the vast majority of countries in the world where there has been conflict were attacked, invaded or colonized by countries that would become part of NATO, or were part of nato while they were doing it.

Its called a "non-sequitur". The colonial past during the time of kings and queens is irrelevant. Everybody was at war with everybody at that time. Tribes against tribes, countries against countries, unions against unions.
What matters is that NATO countries now, and for the last 100 years, have been most peaceful and stable places to live. There is a reason why the worlds population migrates to the west.
Western empires gave up their empires and became nation states. Russia never did that. It still clings on to its imperial ambitions and by doing so, it is bound for a conflict with nation states.

It doesn’t really matter what it sounds like to you

That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn't sign that.

And i will re-iterate:

As for neutrality - russia doesn't want that. They have made it clear. They dont want Ukraine to be neutral, they want Ukraine to be their subject. They want to control what Ukraine is and what it does. That doesnt sound very neutral to me.

Your own comment proved my point. Russia is dictating what Ukraine can and cant do, what its policies should be, who it should be friends with and so on. Thats not neutrality. Thats domination. Thats what Russia wants. It wants to control Ukraine, and joining nato would take that option away from them.


I said:

As for minority languages and freedom of religion - both are allowed and were allowed in Ukraine since god knows when.

And you replied:
You are wrong:

The 2012 law On the principles of the State language policy.

Do you realize that you proved my point and not yours?
The answer lies in the title: "The 2012 law...". That was brand new law, only a few years in force before russia started annexing Ukrainian territories. Repealing that law was not a reason. Are you saying that a year before 2012, russians were banned from speaking in Russian? Really?
No. Repealing that law returned Ukraine into a state it was a year before that law was signed.
Russians were always allowed to speak in Russian. That law was repealed because it went against the constitution and it was not passed properly. It was basically shoe-horned in.

PS: forgot this little pearl.
Religion:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/10/30/...eedom-concerns

Thats a no brainer. Banning russian church is an obvious thing to do during an invasion by russia. You do understand that the church in russia is tightly woven together with the state. Its an a method of controlling and influencing people. There is a reason why all large countries create their own religions and versions of christianity. Is christianity, islam, hinduism or any other religion banned in Ukraine? No.
Is a state controlled variant of mainstream religion banned? Yes, and it was about time. Whoever went to orthodox church can go to some other church. Are they not all about Jesus? Why does the government affiliation matter so much.
Quick summary of the russian church leader:

Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, has been reported to have collaborated with the KGB, the Soviet Union's main security agency, during the 1970s. According to declassified Swiss archives, during his tenure in Geneva as the Russian Orthodox Church's representative to the World Council of Churches, Kirill, codenamed "Mikhailov," engaged in activities aligned with KGB objectives.
THE MOSCOW TIMES

His mission reportedly involved influencing the World Council of Churches to adopt positions critical of the United States and its allies while downplaying criticisms of the Soviet Union's religious policies. This aligns with broader patterns during the Soviet era, where the KGB infiltrated religious organizations to further state interests.

[Faust]

I respect that you took your time, I will read it more carefully later!

[marekparek]

[Faust]

What matters is that NATO countries now, and for the last 100 years, have been most peaceful and stable places to live. There is a reason why the worlds population migrates to the west.

Probably due to the peace and stability those NATO countries bring to the world right?

Don’t get me wrong, to live in a AAAA country is an absolute blast; my biggest problems are basically where to go on holiday and that I got the black Apple Watch Ultra 2 with the Milanese band while I now actually prefer the natural titanium color. Also I have the PS5 pro and the PS5 pro 30th anniversary edition also and I cannot find a PS5 disc drive which is needed to play my old PS4 games.
These are the issues I am currently dealing with and I would never trade them to live in any country where you can be bombed by Israel or where the government is fighting proxy wars for the US or some other bullshit

You failed to understand my point once again. My point was that it doesn't matter if they name streets after people who fought for their country, as long as russia has statues and streets named after Stalin and as long as they praise Stalin, Ukraine can praise its versions of the same thing.

You fail to understand mine. How many bandera streets were in Ukraine in 1991 or 1992 or 1993 and so on until 2013? Zero. Now every major city apparently has a few at least.

Here is something about a Stalin center that opened, and it contains Putins view if you are interested
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/20/o...ynn/index.html

[Faust]

I’d say the post 2014 Ukrainian identity was always gears towards war. First civil war and later actual war.

The bandera worshipping and far right groups funding was the CIAs idea of creating factions and armies that carry enough hate so that they will kill their fellow Ukrainians
Also it creates shared past of oppression, also with the whole “holodomor” bullshit; it is supposedly genocide even though millions more non-Ukrainians died.. also nobody ever mentioned it until some George soros funds were paying money to write some stories about it.

The Ukrainian people and their cities and children all suffer. And trump will bring an end to it. For a while, until the country eats itself and western troops are sent to deal with the Ukrainians same way that the afghans were trained, funded and beloved until a few laters the US came back to bomb their land and kill a lot of their people.

[scorpion9]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

I’d say the post 2014 Ukrainian identity was always gears towards war. First civil war and later actual war.

The bandera worshipping and far right groups funding was the CIAs idea of creating factions and armies that carry enough hate so that they will kill their fellow Ukrainians
Also it creates shared past of oppression, also with the whole “holodomor” bullshit; it is supposedly genocide even though millions more non-Ukrainians died.. also nobody ever mentioned it until some George soros funds were paying money to write some stories about it.

The Ukrainian people and their cities and children all suffer. And trump will bring an end to it. For a while, until the country eats itself and western troops are sent to deal with the Ukrainians same way that the afghans were trained, funded and beloved until a few laters the US came back to bomb their land and kill a lot of their people.

I was about to add in my last post that this is probably all just the usual part of hatred towards US. And you didnt fail to prove me right.
People tend to go overboard with the anti-US hatred. Fine, hate the US, but keep evaluating each claim and problem separately. Someone who has jumped onto the anti-US bandwagen almost always accepts all the other claims and scenarios where the US is made to look evil. Doesn't matter if its true or not, as long as the US is the bad guy in that scenario. Its like flat earthers claiming to have a problem with the globe model of the earth, whilst in reality, their problem is fundamentalist religious views. Once they accept the fundamentalist views on religion, they must accept all other views that align with their initial "required belief".
US being a bad guy does not make Russia the good guy by default.

As for the Holodomor, since you like GPT explanations, here is one for you.

context: history
How many people died in the Moscow region during the Holodomor famine

The Holodomor (1932–1933) primarily affected Ukraine and is recognized as a man-made famine caused by Soviet policies under Joseph Stalin. The Moscow region, being in Russia and not a part of Ukraine, was not directly affected by the Holodomor in the same catastrophic way as Ukraine was. However, during the same period, there was widespread famine across parts of the Soviet Union, including regions in Russia.

Estimates for the total death toll across the Soviet Union during the famine range from 6 million to 8 million people, with 3 to 5 million in Ukraine alone.

if it is recognized as man-made, how did men cause this famine deliberately?

The Holodomor, recognized as a man-made famine, was caused by deliberate policies and actions of the Soviet government under Joseph Stalin. It primarily affected Ukraine from 1932 to 1933. Here are the key ways in which it was deliberately caused:

The Soviet government imposed unrealistic grain procurement quotas on Ukrainian farmers. These quotas were so high that they left peasants with little to no food for themselves.

Armed brigades, often accompanied by local officials, were sent to villages to confiscate grain, livestock, and even seeds meant for planting. Failure to meet quotas was met with severe punishments.

Confiscation of Food
Soviet authorities implemented a policy known as the "blacklist" system. Villages that failed to meet grain quotas were blacklisted, which meant:
They were surrounded by armed forces.
All food and supplies were confiscated.
Trade was banned, making it impossible to obtain food elsewhere.
This policy ensured starvation in affected areas.


Export of GrainWhile millions were starving, the Soviet Union continued to export grain to other countries to demonstrate the success of its collectivization policies and secure foreign currency for industrialization efforts.



Travel Restrictions
To prevent Ukrainians from seeking food in other regions, Soviet authorities imposed internal travel restrictions.
People were not allowed to leave famine-stricken areas. Special internal passports were introduced, and those caught fleeing were sent back or arrested.

[Faust]

The main issue with ChatGPT is that it is trained on basically CNN, so you really need to interrogate it in order to get a correct answer, I am equipped to do so don’t worry but it might take 5 minutes