[toms]

what is the point of russian nazis in Ukraine?hes talking about genocide,thats some heavy shit, you have to see what kind of evil the ukrainians are facing , those nazis and communists are the the same shit just different ideologies

[WonderMomma]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

I don’t think anybody ever claimed there are no neonazis in Russia, however there is quite a difference between having Neo nazis exist in your country, or if a country has Neo nazi marches in the cities and streets named after SS war criminals, or if they even hold vigils in name of those SS people.
Boneface is on this forum and a US citizen, he is a Neo nazi as per his own claim and interviews. Does this make documentingreality.com a Neo nazi forum? Or does this make US a Neo nazi country? No it does not

There are streets, buildings, squares, bridges, etc. named after war criminals in both Russia and the US. People who liked to play god with the lives of other people as means to their own interests. There are gatherings to honor these people in both countries. Saying that only Ukraine does this, that and the other when other countries do the same shit is hypocritical.

I understand that throwing a whole group of people in a box according to the actions of some is easier when one feels compelled to choose a side. It's a coping and defense mechanism. But it's lazy and dangerous. It's the root of all that is wrong with how we treat each other as human beings.

There's one label you should slap on an entire population of any country, group, color, nationality... whatever. Human. Then decipher their differences from there but that takes quite a bit of time, brain power, work, effort and energy so people don't do it.

Anyway, I found reports that there was a plan to name a street after war criminal but there are also reports it was false and others that it was canceled. It might have happened twice, or something.
https://www.jta.org/quick-reads/ukra...-collaborators
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7485
https://kyivcity.gov.ua/news/odnu_z_...tora_pavlenka/
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antis...article-738940
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/inter...nd-ss-official

Even if it is true... it's true in many countries. There are things in many, many countries named after people who have committed war crimes and "nazi" label or not - they are humans that committed genocide and/or indiscriminate murder for reasons stated above. So if you talk about Ukraine having this issue, talk about them all. Especially Russia since they feel they hold the moral high ground in this war enough to dictate what Ukraine does/deserves.

This specific nazi conversation is a LOT of things including hypocritical but mostly redundant and pointless. It's been had a million times here. You hold your opinion and that's fine but live and let live. Your need to constantly interject your views and try to change people's minds is futile. Most of all, what I or anyone thinks doesn't affect your ability to live your life or exist on this platform, so don't allow it to. Not one of us here know if we're on the right side of anything, so let's stop pretending we do.

[Faust]

I was merely responding to toms he brought it up and I dealt with it

As for the streets I don’t know how accurate chatGPT 4 is

The issue of street names in Ukraine that are associated with figures connected to Nazi collaboration or the SS is quite sensitive, and some streets have been renamed as part of Ukraine's broader process of de-communization and reevaluation of its historical figures. However, there are still several examples of streets named after individuals who were involved with the Nazi regime, particularly from the context of Ukrainian nationalist movements during World War II. Here are notable examples and figures that have been subjects of controversy in this regard:

1. Stefan Bandera
Stefan Bandera was a leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), and while he is seen by some as a hero for his role in advocating for Ukrainian independence, his wartime activities and some of his followers' collaboration with the Nazis are highly controversial. Bandera's role in Nazi-occupied Ukraine and the atrocities committed by factions of the OUN are part of the debate.
Street Names: There are numerous streets named after Bandera in Ukrainian cities, especially after 2014, following Ukraine's independence and the removal of Soviet-era symbols. Examples include:
Kyiv: Stefan Bandera Street (a major thoroughfare)
Lviv: Stefan Bandera Street
Ternopil: Bandera Street
Ivano-Frankivsk: Bandera Street
2. Roman Shukhevych
Roman Shukhevych was a leader of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), which fought against both Soviet and Nazi forces during WWII. However, parts of the UPA, including the faction led by Shukhevych, have been accused of collaboration with Nazi Germany and involvement in atrocities against Poles and Jews.
Street Names: There are also several streets named after him, including in cities with significant nationalist sentiments:
Kyiv: Roman Shukhevych Street
Lviv: Roman Shukhevych Street
Ivano-Frankivsk: Roman Shukhevych Street
Ternopil: Shukhevych Street
3. Andriy Melnyk
Andriy Melnyk was another prominent figure in the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), and during WWII, his faction was more aligned with Nazi Germany, although he later became a key figure in the postwar Ukrainian diaspora.
Street Names: In some areas, streets are named after him:
Kyiv: Andriy Melnyk Street
Lviv: Andriy Melnyk Street
4. Banderivtsi (Followers of Bandera)
The term "Banderivtsi" refers to the followers of Stefan Bandera and the faction of the OUN that supported his ideas during WWII. While not an individual, this term is sometimes used as part of street names.
Street Names:
Kyiv: Banderivtsi Street (part of the renaming process of streets associated with Soviet or pro-Soviet figures)
5. Vasyl' Ivasiuk
Vasyl' Ivasiuk was a Ukrainian nationalist involved in the anti-Soviet struggle, but also a figure with complex wartime affiliations, and his actions during the Nazi occupation remain controversial in some circles.
Street Names: Ivasiuk's name appears in some areas, but it is less widespread than those of Bandera or Shukhevych.
6. Other Controversial Names:
In addition to the above individuals, there are a few other cases of streets named after figures whose ties to Nazi collaboration are debated:

Yevhen Konovalets – leader of the OUN, who initially collaborated with the Nazis before the OUN's break with Germany.
Street Names:
Lviv: Yevhen Konovalets Street
Overview and Renaming Efforts:
Since 2015, Ukraine has implemented a significant process of de-communization, which led to the renaming of streets associated with Soviet-era figures. However, some streets named after individuals like Bandera, Shukhevych, or other Ukrainian nationalists continue to spark debate and are not universally seen as controversial in every region.

Lviv, Kyiv, Ivano-Frankivsk, and Ternopil are among the cities where nationalist figures, including those associated with the OUN, have street names in their honor.
This ongoing legacy of street naming highlights the contentious nature of Ukrainian history and the country’s attempts to reconcile its wartime past with its current identity, especially in light of its post-Soviet independence.

Final Note:

The number of streets named after these figures can vary over time due to local political decisions, and this list is not exhaustive but provides an overview of some of the most well-known examples. While some cities may have renamed these streets in recent years, others may still bear these names, reflecting differing political and historical perspectives within Ukraine

[Faust]

This might be interesting as well:

What is the slogan of the nationalist socialist movement of Ukraine?
ChatGPT said:

ChatGPT
The nationalist socialist movement in Ukraine, particularly associated with far-right groups like the Azov Battalion and other extremist factions, has often used slogans such as "Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!" ("Слава Україні! Героям слава!"), which is a historical Ukrainian nationalist slogan. It was revived in the post-Soviet era and became widely known during the 2014 Ukrainian revolution.

However, some of these far-right groups have also used other controversial slogans associated with neo-Nazi ideologies, such as "Blood and soil" ("Кров і земля") or variations that link back to historical fascist imagery, though these are not as universally adopted by mainstream nationalist movements in Ukraine.

It’s important to distinguish between the broader Ukrainian nationalist movement, which includes a wide range of ideologies from moderate to extreme, and the far-right factions, which represent a smaller, more radical segment of the population. The use of slogans can vary significantly depending on the group in question.



You said:
What is the slogan of the German nationalist socialist movement?
ChatGPT said:

ChatGPT
The slogan most commonly associated with the German National Socialist movement, particularly during the era of Nazi Germany (1933–1945), was "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer" ("One people, one empire, one leader"). This slogan encapsulated the core of Nazi ideology, emphasizing unity under a single leader (Adolf Hitler) and the vision of a unified, racially "pure" German state.

Another famous slogan used by the Nazi regime was "Sieg Heil", which means "Hail Victory." It was often used as a form of salute and chant, particularly in the context of rallies and public events.

Since the fall of Nazi Germany, these slogans have been associated with far-right extremist groups and neo-Nazis, and their use is illegal in Germany and many other countries due to their connection to hate, violence, and totalitarianism.



You said:
So sieg heil is similar to slava Ukraine?
ChatGPT said:

ChatGPT
While both "Sieg Heil" and "Slava Ukraini!" are used as rallying cries by different nationalist groups, their meanings, historical contexts, and connotations are very different.

"Sieg Heil" ("Hail Victory") is a phrase closely associated with Nazi Germany and its totalitarian ideology. It was used as a salute and chant to express loyalty to Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime. The phrase is intrinsically tied to the horrors of fascism, war, and the Holocaust. As such, it is widely viewed as a symbol of hate, racism, and oppression, and its use is illegal in many countries today, particularly in Germany.
"Slava Ukraini!" ("Glory to Ukraine!") is a slogan that has roots in Ukrainian nationalism and has been used by various Ukrainian political and military groups, particularly since the early 20th century. The slogan was popularized by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) during World War II, and it was revived in the 21st century, particularly during the 2014 Ukrainian Revolution and the ongoing conflict with Russia. It expresses pride in Ukrainian sovereignty and patriotism, and it is generally associated with Ukrainian national identity, rather than any specific ideology of hate.
While both slogans are used as symbols of national pride, "Sieg Heil" is heavily associated with fascism and the extreme far-right, while "Slava Ukraini!" is primarily a patriotic slogan linked to Ukrainian independence and resistance against foreign domination. "Slava Ukraini!" is not inherently tied to any racist or authoritarian ideology, although it has been adopted by some far-right factions in Ukraine.

In short, while both slogans are used to express nationalism, "Sieg Heil" is associated with a dark chapter of European history and the ideology of Nazism, whereas "Slava Ukraini!" has a much broader, more complex context tied to Ukrainian sovereignty and independence.



You said:
So Ukrainian identity was revived after 2014?
ChatGPT said:

ChatGPT
Ukrainian identity has a long and rich history that was never fully erased, but it experienced a significant revival and strengthening after 2014, particularly in the context of the Euromaidan protests and the subsequent Russian annexation of Crimea and the war in eastern Ukraine. Here's a breakdown of how Ukrainian identity evolved, with a focus on the events around 2014:

Pre-2014 Ukrainian Identity
Historical roots: Ukrainian identity has deep historical roots, stretching back to the medieval Kyivan Rus' (9th to 13th centuries). Over the centuries, Ukraine faced periods of foreign domination by empires such as the Russian Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and the Soviet Union, which attempted to suppress or minimize Ukrainian language, culture, and national identity.
Soviet period: During the Soviet era, the Soviet government sought to diminish Ukrainian cultural and political autonomy, imposing Russian language and culture, while also repressing nationalist movements. Despite this, Ukrainian identity persisted, with many Ukrainians maintaining a sense of cultural pride and a connection to their history.
Post-Soviet independence: Ukraine declared independence in 1991 after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. However, the process of building a unified national identity was challenging due to divisions between the pro-European west and pro-Russian east, as well as lingering economic and political struggles.
The 2014 Revolution of Dignity (Euromaidan)
Pro-European shift: The 2014 Euromaidan protests were sparked by then-President Viktor Yanukovych's decision to reject an association agreement with the European Union in favor of closer ties with Russia. This decision was seen by many as a betrayal of Ukraine’s aspirations for greater integration with Europe. The protests led to the eventual ousting of Yanukovych and signaled a dramatic shift toward European integration and a more distinct Ukrainian national identity, one that was more defined in opposition to Russian influence.
National unity: The Euromaidan protests brought together Ukrainians from different regions and backgrounds, united by a desire for greater political freedom, economic reform, and national sovereignty. The phrase "Slava Ukraini!" ("Glory to Ukraine!") became a rallying cry during this period, as it symbolized resistance to Russian dominance and the desire for a stronger, independent Ukrainian state.
Post-2014: The War and National Revival
Russian annexation of Crimea: In 2014, Russia annexed Crimea, and pro-Russian separatists began fighting in eastern Ukraine (Donetsk and Luhansk regions). This aggression from Russia significantly strengthened Ukrainian national identity, as the country rallied around its sovereignty and territorial integrity. The slogan "Slava Ukraini!" became more widely adopted, symbolizing the country's resilience and defiance in the face of external aggression.
Cultural and linguistic revival: After 2014, there was a greater emphasis on promoting the Ukrainian language, culture, and history. In the face of Russian occupation and propaganda, Ukraine worked to strengthen its national institutions and forge a more unified sense of identity. Ukrainian-language media, education, and cultural projects flourished, and there was a strong push to emphasize Ukraine's unique heritage, separate from Russia.
National heroes: Figures like Stepan Bandera (leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists during World War II) and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) were revived as symbols of resistance, though these figures are controversial due to their associations with violent nationalist movements and complicity in some wartime atrocities. Nonetheless, they became symbols for many of Ukrainian resistance and independence.
Ukrainian Identity Today
European orientation: Ukraine has increasingly oriented itself toward Europe, with the signing of the Association Agreement with the EU in 2014, and further integration efforts. This has reinforced a sense of Ukrainian identity as separate from Russian influence and aligned more closely with Western values of democracy, sovereignty, and rule of law.
Resilience and pride: The ongoing war with Russia (especially after Russia's full-scale invasion in 2022) has strengthened a sense of Ukrainian pride and unity. The national identity has become firmly associated with resistance to foreign invasion, the defense of democratic values, and the desire for self-determination.
Conclusion:
While Ukrainian identity was never entirely "lost" or "erased," the events of 2014 played a pivotal role in reviving and strengthening a distinct Ukrainian national identity. The war with Russia, in particular, has crystallized this identity, creating a sense of unity and resilience that transcends historical divisions within the country. The post-2014 era has been marked by a resurgence of Ukrainian pride, a focus on national sovereignty, and a rejection of Russian influence, which continues to shape the nation’s future.



You said:
How come there was no identity between 1991 and 2014?
ChatGPT said:

ChatGPT
The period between Ukraine's independence in 1991 and the Euromaidan protests in 2014 was marked by a complex and evolving process of national identity formation. While there certainly was a Ukrainian identity during this period, it was more fragmented and less unified than after 2014. Several factors contributed to this challenge:

1. Historical Legacy of Soviet Rule
Soviet suppression: For much of the 20th century, Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, where the Soviet regime actively suppressed Ukrainian language, culture, and national identity. Policies such as Russification and the promotion of Russian as the dominant language meant that many Ukrainians were raised in a Russian-speaking environment, especially in the urban and industrial centers in the east and south of the country.
Great Famine (Holodomor): The Holodomor (1932–1933), a man-made famine in Soviet Ukraine that killed millions, left deep scars on the national psyche. While this event is an important part of Ukrainian identity, its memory was suppressed for many years under Soviet rule and even into the early years of independence, making it difficult to mobilize a unified, collective national identity immediately after independence.
2. Economic and Political Instability
Weak state institutions: Ukraine faced significant economic and political challenges in the 1990s and 2000s. After independence in 1991, the country struggled with economic collapse, corruption, and political instability. There were few strong, unifying state institutions to promote a cohesive national identity.
Corruption and oligarchic control: The rise of oligarchs in the 1990s, who controlled much of the economy and political life, contributed to the erosion of trust in state institutions. This undermined efforts to build a strong, unified sense of national identity that could transcend regional divisions.
Divisions between the East and West: There were stark cultural, political, and linguistic divisions between the western regions of Ukraine, which were historically more pro-European and associated with Ukrainian nationalism, and the eastern and southern regions, which had stronger historical ties to Russia and a larger Russian-speaking population. This split created friction in the process of developing a cohesive national identity.
3. Russian Influence and Historical Ties
Cultural and political ties to Russia: Many Ukrainians, especially in the eastern and southern regions, felt a strong cultural and historical connection to Russia. Russia’s political and media influence remained significant throughout the 1990s and 2000s. This created an environment in which Ukrainian identity was sometimes seen as secondary to, or even subordinate to, Russian identity.
Language and media divide: Russian was the dominant language in much of Ukraine, particularly in urban areas like Kyiv, Donetsk, and Kharkiv. The mass media landscape was also largely influenced by Russian-language outlets. This reinforced the idea that Ukrainian identity was either something secondary or even an obstacle to integration with Russia. Many Ukrainians in these regions considered themselves more Russian than Ukrainian, even though they lived in an independent Ukraine.
4. Geopolitical Uncertainty
The tug-of-war between Russia and the West: Ukraine's geopolitical positioning between Russia and Europe left the country in a state of flux. Ukraine’s foreign policy orientation was often divided, with some factions advocating for closer ties with Russia (e.g., through the Commonwealth of Independent States, or CIS) and others pushing for integration with the European Union or NATO. This division was evident in presidential elections, where candidates like Viktor Yanukovych (pro-Russian) and Viktor Yushchenko (pro-European) symbolized the split in Ukrainian identity and foreign policy preferences.
Lack of clear European path: While Ukraine aspired to European integration, the process was slow, and there was no clear path for Ukraine to fully align with the West. The political and economic changes needed to bring the country into closer alignment with Europe took longer to materialize than many expected, delaying the development of a unified national identity based on European values.
5. Identity Crisis and Competing Narratives
Struggles over historical memory: Ukraine’s history was deeply contested. Different parts of the country had different historical narratives, particularly when it came to issues like World War II and Soviet-era collaboration. In western Ukraine, nationalist groups like the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) were seen as heroes, while in the east and south, they were often viewed with suspicion due to their violent tactics and wartime activities.
Conflicting memories of Soviet legacy: In the immediate aftermath of independence, there was no consensus on how to interpret Ukraine’s Soviet past. For some, Soviet rule was seen as a period of economic development, while for others it represented oppression and occupation. This confusion made it difficult to forge a unified national identity, as people had different memories and perceptions of their shared history.
6. Political Fragmentation
Orange Revolution (2004): In 2004, the Orange Revolution briefly united Ukrainians around a pro-democracy, pro-European movement against electoral fraud. However, after the revolution, political divisions deepened again. The victory of Viktor Yanukovych in the 2010 presidential election, largely supported by the pro-Russian east, was seen as a step backward for Ukrainian national identity in the eyes of many pro-Western Ukrainians in the west and center of the country.
Political polarization: The political scene was deeply polarized between those advocating for European integration and those favoring stronger ties with Russia. This division extended to the population, and political leaders often exploited these tensions, further complicating efforts to build a common national identity.
7. Lack of National Symbolism and Unity
Weak national symbols: After independence, Ukraine struggled to create a set of strong national symbols, rituals, and institutions that could help unify the country. The Ukrainian language, despite being the official language, was not universally spoken or promoted, particularly in the eastern and southern regions. The country lacked a central, unifying figure or movement that could define what it meant to be Ukrainian, particularly in contrast to its Russian neighbor.
Cultural fragmentation: Ukraine’s cultural scene was also divided, with different regions of the country producing distinct forms of music, literature, and art that were sometimes at odds with one another. While Ukrainian identity was certainly expressed in various forms, it lacked a unified national narrative that could encompass all Ukrainians.
Conclusion
While Ukrainian identity was never fully absent between 1991 and 2014, the factors mentioned above—historical legacies, political divisions, regional differences, and external pressures—created a fragmented and often contested sense of national unity. It wasn’t until the Euromaidan revolution and the Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014 that a stronger, more unified Ukrainian national identity emerged. The struggle for sovereignty, the resistance to Russian aggression, and the push for closer ties with Europe galvanized a broader sense of Ukrainian pride, resilience, and independence, bringing many previously divided regions together. The events of 2014 helped crystallize a new sense of Ukrainian identity that was less defined by external influences and more focused on the values of independence, democracy, and European integration.



You said:
Which western NGOs were involved to promote Ukrainian identity?
ChatGPT said:

ChatGPT
Western non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and international actors played a significant role in promoting Ukrainian identity, particularly after Ukraine's independence in 1991 and during the years leading up to and following the Euromaidan protests of 2014. These organizations often worked in the areas of democratization, civil society development, cultural preservation, and European integration, which helped foster a stronger sense of national identity in Ukraine.

Here are some of the key NGOs and international organizations that contributed to the promotion of Ukrainian identity:

1. National Endowment for Democracy (NED)
Focus: Democracy promotion, civil society strengthening, and supporting free speech.
Involvement in Ukraine: The NED, through its various grantees, has been involved in Ukraine since its independence, particularly in the areas of democracy-building, good governance, and political reforms. The NED supported efforts to empower civil society and promote Ukrainian cultural and national pride, especially by helping grassroots organizations develop and push for democratic reforms.
Role in Identity Formation: NED supported Ukrainian organizations working on human rights, media freedom, and cultural initiatives that helped Ukrainians express and define their national identity.
2. Open Society Foundations (OSF)
Focus: Promoting democracy, human rights, and social justice.
Involvement in Ukraine: OSF, founded by George Soros, has been active in Ukraine since the 1990s. The foundation funded programs aimed at strengthening democracy, rule of law, and civic engagement.
Role in Identity Formation: Open Society Foundations have supported Ukrainian media, education programs, and cultural initiatives to promote Ukrainian language, cultural heritage, and European values. These initiatives helped foster a stronger Ukrainian identity, particularly in the aftermath of the Euromaidan protests and Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014.
3. International Renaissance Foundation (IRF)
Focus: Promoting democratic values, human rights, and the development of civil society.
Involvement in Ukraine: The International Renaissance Foundation is a major Ukrainian branch of the Open Society Foundations and has been instrumental in supporting initiatives related to democratic development, media freedom, and cultural projects.
Role in Identity Formation: IRF supported projects aimed at preserving and promoting Ukrainian culture and language, especially in regions where Russian influence was strong. It has worked to strengthen civil society organizations, many of which focused on enhancing national pride and a sense of unity.
4. European Endowment for Democracy (EED)
Focus: Supporting the democratic development of countries in Eastern Europe and the EU’s neighborhood.
Involvement in Ukraine: The EED provides grants to Ukrainian civil society organizations working to promote democratic reforms and European integration.
Role in Identity Formation: By supporting initiatives that strengthen democratic practices and promote Ukrainian civic values, EED has contributed to the shaping of a modern Ukrainian identity that aligns with European values of freedom, rule of law, and human rights.
5. U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID)
Focus: Promoting democratic governance, economic development, and civil society.
Involvement in Ukraine: USAID has been active in Ukraine since the 1990s, providing significant funding for projects aimed at democratic reforms, civil society development, and media literacy. USAID has also supported education programs that teach Ukrainian language, history, and culture, helping to foster a sense of national pride.
Role in Identity Formation: Through various grants and programs, USAID supported the promotion of Ukrainian language and culture, as well as civil society organizations that advocated for a unified national identity rooted in democracy and independence.
6. British Council
Focus: Promoting cultural exchange and education.
Involvement in Ukraine: The British Council has long been active in Ukraine, fostering cultural exchange and providing education programs that emphasize Ukraine’s unique cultural identity and its connections to European heritage.
Role in Identity Formation: By organizing cultural events and educational programs, the British Council helped build bridges between Ukraine and Europe while also promoting Ukrainian language, art, and history as integral parts of the nation’s identity.
7. The National Democratic Institute (NDI)
Focus: Supporting democracy, political participation, and governance.
Involvement in Ukraine: NDI has been working in Ukraine since the 1990s to support political reforms, elections, and civil society. NDI has also worked to empower women, youth, and marginalized groups in Ukrainian society, giving them a voice in shaping the country’s future.
Role in Identity Formation: NDI's focus on democratic engagement and inclusive governance contributed to a Ukrainian identity based on democratic principles and a commitment to sovereignty and self-determination.
8. Freedom House
Focus: Supporting democracy, human rights, and political freedom.
Involvement in Ukraine: Freedom House has provided support for Ukrainian civil society organizations working on issues of political freedom, media independence, and cultural preservation. The organization has also been involved in monitoring elections and promoting free speech.
Role in Identity Formation: Freedom House has supported Ukrainian efforts to promote national unity and civic engagement, particularly through programs that encourage democratic participation and the preservation of Ukrainian culture in the face of external pressures, especially from Russia.
9. The International Republican Institute (IRI)
Focus: Promoting democratic governance, political development, and political participation.
Involvement in Ukraine: IRI worked to support democratic reforms and encourage the active participation of Ukrainian citizens in political processes, including through the promotion of electoral reforms, civic education, and leadership development.
Role in Identity Formation: By promoting political engagement and fostering democratic values, IRI helped strengthen the sense of Ukrainian national identity, emphasizing sovereignty and self-determination within a European framework.
10. The United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)
Focus: Supporting sustainable development, human rights, and the rule of law.
Involvement in Ukraine: UNDP has supported various projects in Ukraine aimed at improving governance, promoting social cohesion, and advancing cultural heritage. It has worked to help communities define their identity through projects that promote local history, language, and national unity.
Role in Identity Formation: UNDP's work on community empowerment and cultural projects helped reinforce a sense of Ukrainian identity by focusing on historical awareness and civic responsibility.
Conclusion
Western NGOs and international organizations played a significant role in shaping Ukraine's post-independence trajectory by supporting initiatives that promoted democracy, civil society, media freedom, and cultural identity. By funding programs that emphasized the Ukrainian language, cultural heritage, and European integration, these organizations helped Ukrainians define a national identity based on sovereignty, self-determination, and democratic values—especially in contrast to Russian influence. While the process was slow and faced many challenges, the work of these organizations, particularly after the Euromaidan protests of 2014, helped foster a stronger, more unified sense of Ukrainian identity.

[Faust]

In that context, I’d say “denazification” means removal of the post-2014 national identity. Allowing minority languages and freedom of religion would play part in that. World war 2 showed that near eradication of national identity IS possible, however it required the total defeat of the Third Reich.

In conclusion:
Of all the special military operational goals:
-neutrality
-demilitarisation
-denazification

The denazification is actually the hardest to achieve. The neutrality can be signed by the USA, demilitarisation is achieved once funding stops. But the denazification requires erasure of what is now part of national identity;
Renaming all those streets, makes laws prohibiting those vigils and so on.
Nationalists could start a war of that in my opinion.
It is a shame we don’t have Boneface to give his opinion as he has worked with the elite forces of Ukraine

[Faust]

If anybody wants a reality check, this is it:

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-urg...ys-2024-11-27/

“ Nov 27 (Reuters) - Ukraine should consider lowering the age of military service for its soldiers to 18 years old, a senior U.S. administration official said on Wednesday, putting pressure on Kyiv to bolster its fighting forces in the country's war with Russia.
Speaking to reporters, the official said Ukraine was not mobilizing or training enough new soldiers to replace those lost on the battlefield.”

I understand that the daily published Ukraine numbers are considered canon by most moderators on this website, but this is the discussion forum and reuters is considered a journalistic source with integrity..
So either the US general is wrong for thinking Ukraine would need to conscript 18 year olds, or Ukraine is not doing as well as many claim

[WonderMomma]

OK well it seems you didn't read my post. lol

Have a good night.

[Faust]

“ Your need to constantly interject your views and try to change people's minds is futile.”

“ Anyway, I found reports that there was a plan to name a street after war criminal but there are also reports it was false and others that it was canceled. It might have happened twice, or something.”

I am just responding to your narrative, that is how discussion works
toms started the nazi discussion. it like with a war; some people start it, other people end it

[scorpion9]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

“ Your need to constantly interject your views and try to change people's minds is futile.”

“ Anyway, I found reports that there was a plan to name a street after war criminal but there are also reports it was false and others that it was canceled. It might have happened twice, or something.”

I am just responding to your narrative, that is how discussion works
toms started the nazi discussion. it like with a war; some people start it, other people end it

Your entire rambling with gpt was pointless. Everything that applied to Ukraine applies to Russia as well.
Streets named after warcriminals...go to russia and see if you see statues praising Stalin or other soviet generals. You just...don't...understand, that for other countries, both Russia and Germany were equally horrible. You are trying to show Bandera as one of the greatest villains in history and yet...you completely ignore the Russian war crimes, which dwarf anything that anyone in Ukraine did. You also ignore all the other countries at that time. What was Japan doing at that time...what about Italy, China etc.
And i'll say it again, for god knows how how many times now, the soldiers who fought on the german side are not celebrated because they fought on the German side. They are celebrated because they fought for their own countries...against an invader.
The enemy of my enemy is my ally....at least for the duration of the war. Its that simple.
And as for your "glory to ukraine" and "zig heil" comparison....well, thats stupid as well.
These "slogans" are so generic that every country has a version of those in use. Just look at ruzzians. Their mantra is "Za pobedu"....and their führer has said many many times phrases like "glory to russia, glory to us"

You have a few generic slogans and a few namems that are being remembered...and you are trying to squeeze a whole story out of it.

If russia wants to de-nazify someone, they should start form themselves. They are far bigger risk to the world than Ukraine. There is no contest here.

If they want to demilitarize anyone....then they should start from themselves. Again, they are the biggest risk to the world right now and there are no neighbors of russia that are happy having such a militant neighbor. If the world could choose, which country to demilitarize, almost all the countries would choose russia over Ukraine.

As for neutrality - russia doesnt want that. They have made it clear. They dont want Ukraine to be neutral, they want Ukraine to be their subject. They want to control what Ukraine is and what it does. That doesnt sound very neutral to me.

In that context, I’d say “denazification” means removal of the post-2014 national identity. Allowing minority languages and freedom of religion would play part in that.

Nope - Denazification for russia means replacing everything Ukrainian with everything Russian, no matter what it is. There is no post-2014 national identity. The identity they have is the identity they have had for a 100 years, and its the reason they fought against the russians in the second world war.
As for minority languages and freedom of religion - both are allowed and were allowed in Ukraine since god knows when.

[Faust]

Originally Posted by scorpion9 ↗

Your entire rambling with gpt was pointless. Everything that applied to Ukraine applies to Russia as well.
Streets named after warcriminals...go to russia and see if you see statues praising Stalin or other soviet generals. You just...don't...understand, that for other countries, both Russia and Germany were equally horrible. You are trying to show Bandera as one of the greatest villains in history and yet...you completely ignore the Russian war crimes, which dwarf anything that anyone in Ukraine did. You also ignore all the other countries at that time. What was Japan doing at that time...what about Italy, China etc.
And i'll say it again, for god knows how how many times now, the soldiers who fought on the german side are not celebrated because they fought on the German side. They are celebrated because they fought for their own countries...against an invader.
The enemy of my enemy is my ally....at least for the duration of the war. Its that simple.
And as for your "glory to ukraine" and "zig heil" comparison....well, thats stupid as well.
These "slogans" are so generic that every country has a version of those in use. Just look at ruzzians. Their mantra is "Za pobedu"....and their führer has said many many times phrases like "glory to russia, glory to us"

You have a few generic slogans and a few namems that are being remembered...and you are trying to squeeze a whole story out of it.

Again that the praise, adoration as well as naming streets after war criminals specifically happened after 2014

You have no sources which can indicate otherwise, as a matter of fact, you have no sources for anything you wrote, at all

If russia wants to de-nazify someone, they should start form themselves. They are far bigger risk to the world than Ukraine. There is no contest here.

Merely pointing out that post-2014 Ukrainian national identity was created to appeal to far right groups. Even our member Boneface said so himself. As a matter of fact, he claimed that neo nazis were lured to Ukraine to fight for the future regime. Ask him.

If they want to demilitarize anyone....then they should start from themselves. Again, they are the biggest risk to the world right now and there are no neighbors of russia that are happy having such a militant neighbor. If the world could choose, which country to demilitarize, almost all the countries would choose russia over Ukraine.

This is your opinion, not backed by anything; only a few countries in the world have sanctions against Russia, while the vast majority of countries in the world where there has been conflict were attacked, invaded or colonized by countries that would become part of NATO, or were part of nato while they were doing it.

As for neutrality - russia doesnt want that. They have made it clear. They dont want Ukraine to be neutral, they want Ukraine to be their subject. They want to control what Ukraine is and what it does. That doesnt sound very neutral to me.

It doesn’t really matter what it sounds like to you

NATO website:
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/o...ectedLocale=en

Jens stoltenberg (leader of nato)

The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn't sign that.

Nope - Denazification for russia means replacing everything Ukrainian with everything Russian, no matter what it is. There is no post-2014 national identity. The identity they have is the identity they have had for a 100 years, and its the reason they fought against the russians in the second world war.

You are not correct

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...6.2023.2224571

https://link.springer.com/article/10...54-022-00278-y

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...2.2023.2298800

since 2014 and, in particular, since February 2022, these often-competing identities have been codified under a more overarching identity.

As for minority languages and freedom of religion - both are allowed and were allowed in Ukraine since god knows when.

You are wrong:

The 2012 law On the principles of the State language policy [uk] granted regional language status to Russian and other minority languages. It allowed the use of minority languages in courts, schools and other government institutions in areas of Ukraine where the national minorities exceed 10% of the population.[1][2] The 2012 law was supported by the governing Party of Regions and opposed by the opposition parties, who argued that the law undermined the role of the Ukrainian language, violated Article 10 of the Constitution,[2][3][4] and was adopted with an irregular procedure.[5][6] Immediately after the 2014 Ukrainian revolution, on 23 February 2014, the Ukrainian Parliament voted to repeal the law. This decision was vetoed by the acting President Turchynov.[7][8] In October 2014, the Constitutional Court started reviewing the constitutionality of the 2012 law[9] and declared it unconstitutional on 28 February 2018.[10]

Religion:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/10/30/...eedom-concerns

In conclusion; it is good that you have an opinion on a subject, even if your opinion is not backed by anything sources or facts and thus, in my opinion, is completely wrong. But you tried and giving your opinion is always a valid contribution to any discussion at least in concept

Take note
“ Immediately after the 2014 Ukrainian revolution, on 23 February 2014, the Ukrainian Parliament voted to repeal the law.”

I believe this is one of the many factors by the Kiev regime that led to the later independence of crimea and the eastern republics, but it would be pointless to explain it even though you have a very clear timeline of which events happened when