[WhiskeyOutpost]

Originally Posted by Wailode ↗

Read to learn with understanding. Me explaining ideology or leaning of many ukraine poeple and their leadership doesnt mean I hate them. For the most of it I am sure there are many nice and awfull people in every part of the world. I believe there are many heroes and scumbags on the both sides. World is not black and white and we are not kids.. Discussion is not about this. Its about topic that ukraine is very leaning into this prototype of shovinism with made her this reputation. And this shovinism and hatred started mostly in ukraine against its russian speaking civilians, not in russia. Not saying that russians doesnt have also this type of people, but they are not glorifying it.. and thats big difference. For example making Stephan Bandera national hero is huge historical mistake and provocation. Not just for Russia, but also for Poland or Slovakia. Countries who were historically attacked by ukraine during and post WW2.

Political shovinism and historical grievances are very dangerous thing because they can easily escalate into larger scale conflicts.

Oh Ukraine started the hate? Do you not remember years past when Putin and followers were saying on tv that Ukraine isn't a real country and shouldn't exist? Dugin's Russian ultranationalist endless crap on how Ukraine should be dealt with? Many years ago with his concept of "Eurasianism" which Putin had an ear to? You have a short memory. Once again, wrong.

Also you're making up words. "Shovinism" isn't an english word.

You also mentioned you listened to Mearsheimer. You apparantly haven't listened to him recently, he's in full blown apologetics mode and nowhere near the temperature he used to be.

[WhiskeyOutpost]

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[Wailode]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

Oh Ukraine started the hate? Do you not remember years past when Putin and followers were saying on tv that Ukraine isn't a real country and shouldn't exist? Dugin's Russian ultranationalist endless crap on how Ukraine should be dealt with? Many years ago with his concept of "Eurasianism" which Putin had an ear to? You have a short memory. Once again, wrong.

Also you're making up words. "Shovinism" isn't an english word.

You also mentioned you listed to Mearsheimer. You apparantly haven't listened to him recently, he's in full blown apologetics mode and nowhere near the temperature he used to be.

Well with their current attitude and ignorance they will shrink for sure. So Putins words came true. They are hardly nation. If one, then very broken and unstable. Chaotic, corrupt and divided. You cant keep people loyal to you simply by force and big chunk of russian speaking ukraine people choosed to leave them and join russian federation. They recognize current regime of ukraine as dictatorship that doesnt support russian speaking minority, but deliberately targeting them as enemies. That makes ukraine leaders unfit to rule over these people who have right to choose their destiny freely. Especially after they were terrorized for 8 long years.

Nation is already broken and full of extremists who are leading way into bigger corruption and ultra-nacionalism. Currently scandal with FTX scam support tied to ukraine and few terrorist attacks inside belarus and russia from ukraine side. Even the mentioned Dugin daughter was one of the victims of these extremists. False flags or terrorist attacks are somehow natural for them. Pipeline, crimea bridge, civilian artillery fire.. etc.

About the word šovinizmus - found it is spelled in eng. language as chauvinism. By calling russians pigs, orcs or zombies they clearly show sign of this hatred. Not mentioning atrocities they do to many hostages of war. Karma will catch up to them for sure. On both sides.

Example of brainwashed kids:

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Of course they have hatred now, Russia invaded the country.

You're selecting from the lowest of the Rus propaganda shelves. You need to come here with higher shelf stuff that may even have a shred of truth to it. Who cares about FTX, why even mention that, CZ of Binance put out one of his competitors, no one cares and this has zero bearing on any of this.

Maybe you can explain to me why you're saying verbatim at least one of Mearschimer's phrases? And you're accusing others of just parroting Ukrainian media...

[Wailode]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

Of course they have hatred now, Russia invaded the country.

You're selecting from the lowest of the Rus propaganda shelves. You need to come here with higher shelf stuff that may even have a shred of truth to it. Who cares about FTX, why even mention that, CZ of Binance put out one of his competitors, no one cares and this has zero bearing on any of this.

Maybe you can explain to me why you're saying verbatim at least one of Mearschimer's phrases? And you're accusing others of just parroting Ukrainian media...

Well if your daily bread is just Kiev propaganda then its normal for you to be so delusional and just call it a day. I saw many similar trolls like you who doesnt argue on anything, just live in their fairy tail and ignore things that doesnt fit in their picture of created narative.

They will not acknowledge anything that is happening or happened. Just one word answers like: false or no. Denying basic reality and historic facts.


When I confront you with facts what is happening you will call it russian propaganda shelves even when its facts on what is happening on ground from day 1. Every false flag, terrorist attack or coupe can be in the end denied, but that makes u in the end liar. With also adds to Putins words. Simple, empire of lies and liars.


This war didnt started in february, but 8 years ago. Many people are just blind to these facts and refuse to understand full picture. Typical ignorance of many westerners who doesnt recognize and acknowledge faults of their own regimes, decisions and foreign policy.

The funny thing is you dont even live in europe or near ukraine, you know almost nothing about conflict or how it even started but need to push demagogy about whole conflict. This is the worst thing about western imperialism and spreading "democracy" by censorship or false flags.

They create division or color revolution and then act like saviours even when they bring more chaos, death and corruption. People can nowadays see this bullshit from miles ago. Its same program always.

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Originally Posted by Wailode ↗

Well if your daily bread is just Kiev propaganda then its normal for you to be so delusional and just call it a day. I saw many similar trolls like you who doesnt argue on anything, just live in their fairy tail and ignore things that doesnt fit in their picture of created narative.

They will not acknowledge anything that is happening or happened. Just one word answers like: false or no. Denying basic reality and historic facts.


When I confront you with facts what is happening you will call it russian propaganda shelves even when its facts on what is happening on ground from day 1. Every false flag, terrorist attack or coupe can be in the end denied, but that makes u in the end liar. With also adds to Putins words. Simple, empire of lies and liars.


This war didnt started in february, but 8 years ago. Many people are just blind to these facts and refuse to understand full picture. Typical ignorance of many westerners who doesnt recognize and acknowledge faults of their own regimes, decisions and foreign policy.

The funny thing is you dont even live in europe or near ukraine, you know almost nothing about conflict or how it even started but need to push demagogy about whole conflict. This is the worst thing about western imperialism and spreading "democracy" by censorship or false flags.

They create division or color revolution and then act like saviours even when they bring more chaos, death and corruption. People can nowadays see this bullshit from miles ago. Its same program always.

I've made several civil points, you just choose to not respond to them.

Hold the phone. You think this war started only... 8 years ago? Longer, friend.

Stop acting like a victim. It's unattractive.

If I had a positive opinion of Russia you wouldn't be dismissing my opinion based on my geography. You are also new to this section and clearly haven't read the reasons why I'm against Russia. It has to do with my family, some of whom were born in eastern Europe and had some unfortunate interactions with Russian government. That's why they came here.

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Would also point out that your demigod Mearscheimer is an American. But he never lived "over there". So is his opinion null and void too?

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Originally Posted by Wailode ↗

By calling russians pigs, orcs or zombies they clearly show sign of this hatred. Not mentioning atrocities they do to many hostages of war. Karma will catch up to them for sure. On both sides.

Example of brainwashed kids:

Classy to promote violence against children. Wow.

Plenty of hate on the other side. Do I dare go through the list of insulting pejoratives the Russians call Ukrainians? It only begins with "Khokhol".

[WonderMomma]

Originally Posted by WonderMomma ↗

No one is denying that far right nationalism exists in Ukraine. What of it? It's certainly not enough to merit a full on invasion by another country with a larger far right nationalist population. Russia needs to address their own "Nazi problem" before they accuse, invade and try to "liberate" Ukraine of their "Nazi problem". But the fact they are not even acknowledging their own issues from within is proof that it's merely an excuse to do what they're doing for the real reasons they're doing it... fear being the first reason along with wanting Ukraine's resources thereby giving them more power. It's past the point of hypocrisy... it's just straight up lies and bullshit and quite laughable by anyone with a set of eyes and a brain.

That methodology should mean Russia should invade every country on the planet with a mostly "white" population because nationalism exists in all of them.

You're using all these examples of Zelenskyy taking action or bowing down to "Nazi's" to prove a point that they exist... and AGAIN, no one is denying that here. I'm not sure how much clearer I or anyone can make that. This is a CLEAR pattern that all pro-Russian or anti-Ukraine people do here by default and I sound like a broken record.

I know it's not going to happen but everyone should take a few days to read through the discussion threads here to "read the room" before they dive in months later and start roboting the same tired arguments and discussions we've had in here ad nauseum. We're all aware of the "Bandera" argument as well. Asked and answered.

So... for the latest person to drop in well after the starting gun and parrot the same arguments as others; Ukraine is an independent, sovereign nation... it's current government and majority of citizens there want it to stay that way. Unless Ukraine decides to give up this independence and sovereignty and hand over their precious lands and people to Russia they will continue to defend and fight for it all with the help of their allies. The Donbas, Crimea, and all other territories currently occupied by Russian and pro-Russian forces.

You don't have to like it... but that's just the reality of current situation.

Quoting myself to save myself some work.

(sigh)

I don't have the energy to keep doing this every time someone new pops in here and thinks they know everything about me and everyone else in here. The dynamics in here are complicated but well documented and not hard to find.

Why do you guys think I spent the first 3 months lurking in this section? I didn't start interacting with anyone in these RU/UA threads until end of May/beginning of June-ish. Why do you think that was?

I was studying the environment, learning the dynamics. I was observing, taking mental notes, and carefully monitoring not just perspectives but mental fitness and who was just trolling. Who had enough knowledge about the situation that I could take them seriously.

I guess I can't expect other people to prepare the way I did but I just cannot be bothered to keep repeating myself.

I've tried to interact with respect... civilly. I've addressed questions I was asked, or responded directly to points someone would make, often with more information they could ever need. Most of the time they counter with "you've been mislead", "you're a westerner", "you don't live here", "you're just a stupid American", "your information is propaganda", etc.

I don't have the patience to continue trying to engage in civil discussion with mutual respect for the fact that we are all human here. So are all the people we are fighting about, and that's really what it's about for me. But so many people disregard that very simple fact.

With the exception of Duntez, for the most part, I have a hard time getting anyone who has a different opinion to actually answer MY questions or respond to my points.

Especially the nazi stuff. Why is Russia and pro-Russians (or anti-west, anti-ukraine government) so obsessed with the whole nazi thing... when they have far larger nazi or far right nationalist population AND government representation? I can't recall one person from "the other side" that has at least acknowledged that because that would kill a huge narrative and excuse for this war and a HUGE reason why it's so unjustified.

[kellyhound]

https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegatio...read-russia_en