[xennex]

Originally Posted by WonderMomma ↗

No one is denying that far right nationalism exists in Ukraine.
... It's certainly not enough to merit a full on invasion by another country with a larger far right nationalist population.
...Ukraine is an independent, sovereign nation... it's current government and majority of citizens there want it to stay that way. Unless Ukraine decides to give up this independence and sovereignty and hand over their precious lands and people to Russia they will continue to defend and fight for it all with the help of their allies. The Donbas, Crimea, and all other territories currently occupied by Russian and pro-Russian forces....

Well said. Nothing more than an attempt to overthrow a neighboring country and install a puppet regime that would quickly be absorbed by a neighbor who's voting system knows the outcome well before voting starts.

[Roosta]

[QUOTE=WonderMomma;7762139]

Originally Posted by Roosta ↗

I know you don't mean it that way... it's just hard to keep up with what we already have. It's all good and I'm glad we've worked out a way to accommodate all.

I also want to apologize for not conveying my sympathy for the loss of your son. Unfortunately, I can relate and it's the absolutely worst thing one can endure. Even 26 years later I find it near impossible to fathom let alone talk about.

You definitely get a virtual hug from me.

Thanks for your kind words & sounds like you need a big hug 2 !
Keep up the good work !

[Rfneimad]

By Eggs spam logic Russia should have been invaded by Ukraine and friends long ago

[scorpion9]

Originally Posted by Eggs&Spam ↗

I was wondering when the Putinphile accusation was going to be hurled. I said both factions are at fault and the West exacerbated the situation.

Are these shitty sources to you? https://www.npr.org/2022/07/08/11105...-political-par

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...inks-to-russia

https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-...sition-parties

You can argue it is justified but it begs the question of whether this is actually democracy. I'm simply saying it flies in the face of claims the country is this pinnacle of democracy when it historically hasn't been, and you made a flagrantly incorrect presumption about where I got my information from. And here's some history about fascism in Ukraine you probably didn't know about:

Stefan Bandera, considered the "hero of Western Ukraine" was a Ukranian paramilitary Nazi collaborator in WW2 who fought for ethnic cleansing of Jews, Poles, and any ethnic Ukrainian who opposed his ideology and organization. They directly participated with the Nazis in the Holocaust too. Tens of thousands dead as a consequence. (Today you can find various neo-Nazi statues in Western Ukraine memorializing these folks and many still do) Here's an interesting video, you'll notice a few similarities with a certain rally that happened in Virginia a few years ago:



Fast forward to 2014, the protesters fighting against the Maidan riot police in Ukraine had to ally with neo-nazi street gangs as street muscle because they were the most organized and willing to die for the cause. Since Ukraine had no real army, in come paramilitary neo-Nazis which were eventually integrated into the Ukrainian national guard in the form of various battalions including, notably, Azov. What's interesting is Ukrainians polled don't like these neo-Nazis but you can only do so much against a paramilitary force walking the streets. Much easier to use the threat of violence to maintain control. Now when Zelensky came to power, there was going to be a joint-television program featuring Russian and Ukranian networks, Rossia 24 and Medvedchuk. What happened next was the leader of Azov essentially threatened Zelensky by giving a veiled threat to the point of "We will be at your office tomorrow if this is aired." Within the day, the program was cancelled. That's their power. If these neo-nazi battalions, especially Azov, are so small, why are they being invited to Disneyworld and Stanford University? (which had a paper detailing Azov's neo-nazism). They're more powerful and influential than people give them credit for.

Some supplementary information about how fast people's sensibilities about neo-nazis changed: Years ago the FBI had a press conference in California where they announced arrests of neo-nazis who were training to go join Azov. What's even more freaky is around the same time, Facebook banned Azov BECAUSE they were neo-Nazis, but lifted the prohibition years later for the reason that they're fighting Russians. America also had an explicit policy barring arms sales for these fascist groups, but now it's been lifted.

You can be hardcore supporting Ukraine without celebrating neo-Nazis or make excuses for them. For some reason Azov and the neo-Nazis get whitewashed and it's puzzling why this is. u

I'll add my 2 cents here.
First, restricting media outlets and political party crackdown is quite a natural thing to do in a state of war. Ukraine is riddled with Russian informants + at such a critical time, a country needs to be united and cant afford to haggle around problems whilest an overwhelming army is pushing forward.
All countries have separate laws and rules for the war time, and other rules for peacetime.
Restricting media is pretty much mandatory since its 21st century and Russia is pumping billions into media war and propaganda. Other countries have also restricted media channels based on connections to Kremlin.

As for the Bandera, Azov and the "nazis" in ukraine...id like to ask some Russians to actually define the word "nazi" for once and for all.
Russian propaganda throws that word around without any meaning or context. So...who is a nazi and what do they want.
Did Azov kill Jews? Do they want to kill Jews? Do they want to kill Russians? How many russians did they kill before Russia invaded Ukraine?
What did Bandera want? Who and what did Bandera fight for?
Why do some Ukrainians think he was a hero?
Basic questions....how about some answers.

I know that quite a few Russian bots have accused Estonian war veterans of the same thing and went even a step further and claimed that "there were nazi parades in Estonia". I started laughing and asked him...wtf was he talking about. Ive live my whole life here and never seen a nazi or nazi parades. It turned out that according to Russian propaganda, a funeral service for a WW2 war veteran counted as a nazi meeting. Then i knew that the word "nazi" doesn't mean anything when its coming from the mouth of a Russian.
Most Russians have been taught false history...written by the victors of war. According to Russian history, Russia was a great liberator who fought against nazism. They see all those countries that sided with the germans as "nazis" who fought for nazism. They simply can't comprehend the true reality that Russia worked together with the nazis...on the same side and they divided up Eastern Europe. Russia occupied its neighbors before the Germans came. Eastern European countries( like the Baltics ) knew what the Russian occupation was like and had witnessed the deportations, tortures and executions. All that before the Germans came. Of course...from the point of view of occupied territories, the enemy of my enemy is my ally, and it made sense to fight against the evil you know, hoping the evil you don't know turns out less evil.
None of the "nazis" in the occupied territories fought for Germany, they all fought for their own country...using Germans to get rid of Russians. I think even this Bandera guy didn't always get along with the Germans and was even detained by them.

Those ww2 veterans who fought on the German side can be honored for 2 reasons.
1) because they fought in the name of Germany and for the third reigh
2) because they fought for the independence of their own country.

I'm sure almost all of the so called "nazis" are honored for the second reason...and if they had had the power to snap their fingers and make both Russians and Germans to go away, they would have.

I would ask Russians the same question.
Do you honor the war veterans who fought in the second world for because
1) They invaded and occupied their neighboring countries...taking their freedom for half a century
2) They fought against the Germans...who invaded Russia?

I have a hunch that it's also the second option.

[Wailode]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

Give me an example of a pro-Rus user that was banned for merely an opinion. That hasn't happened. But they do have a chronic tendency to resort to trolling and insults at the drop of a hat, this is why those 3-4 users got banned.

I can understand why I think, their side is losing and they're frustrated. So they vent it here on DR anonymously on the internet so they don't get dragged on the street in real life. They trade their logic for a rebel badge and it's not working out for them. Good.

I saw many personal attacks and insults here from both sides. It's very easy to see that this forum is more leaning into western propaganda then some objective discussion on topic. That's why I view this forum somehow as copium joke cut off from reality. Mostly for westerners who doesnt even live here and doesnt fully grasp what is going on in large-scale shift in geopolitics.

Even saying that they are losing is big manipulation and propaganda. Most reasonable people from start knew that there is no way for west ukraine to handle this forever. It's one of the most corrupted regimes in europe. It's better to follow some more relevant sources and people on topic then random trolls and western propaganda copium. Voices of reason are in this time very important.

For example:
Mearsheimer, Douglas Macgregor or Scott Ritter who have more experience on large-scale field combat and strategy in long-term warfare and geopolitics. They are more reasonable and inteligent in this field of discussion then most of the NPCs who just follow media narative and random propaganda talking points. Most of these talking points were in time uncovered as false flags or directly lies.

Snake island, Bucha, ghost of kiev, nuclear power plant strikes, missile explosion in poland etc. I can continue... Not mentioning that there are now people in Donbass, citizens under heavy artillery fire from ukraine side who are so desperate, that they are attacking civil infrastructure as well, as russians did with targeting their electric grid.

In my perspective this is battle of two evils, but in my opinion, ukraine is now larger-scale evil and even more corrupt and crook then russia. As for western wars in last 50 years, I rather not comment them. Its most delusional imperial idealism I ever saw and most of the world is waking up from this delusion.

btw. If you have any good sources of info on this topic I welcome them. I am open for debate.

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Originally Posted by Wailode ↗

I saw many personal attacks and insults here from both sides. It's very easy to see that this forum is more leaning into western propaganda then some objective discussion on topic. That's why I view this forum somehow as copium joke cut off from reality. Mostly for westerners who doesnt even live here and doesnt fully grasp what is going on in large-scale shift in geopolitics.

Even saying that they are losing is big manipulation and propaganda. Most reasonable people from start knew that there is no way for west ukraine to handle this forever. It's one of the most corrupted regimes in europe. It's better to follow some more relevant sources and people on topic then random trolls and western propaganda copium. Voices of reason are in this time very important.

For example:
Mearsheimer, Douglas Macgregor or Scott Ritter who have more experience on large-scale field combat and strategy in long-term warfare and geopolitics. They are more reasonable and inteligent in this field of discussion then most of the NPCs who just follow media narative and random propaganda talking points. Most of these talking points were in time uncovered as false flags or directly lies.

Snake island, Bucha, ghost of kiev, nuclear power plant strikes, missile explosion in poland etc. I can continue... Not mentioning that there are now people in Donbass, citizens under heavy artillery fire from ukraine side who are so desperate, that they are attacking civil infrastructure as well, as russians did with targeting their electric grid.

In my perspective this is battle of two evils, but in my opinion, ukraine is now larger-scale evil and even more corrupt and crook then russia. As for western wars in last 50 years, I rather not comment them. Its most delusional imperial idealism I ever saw and most of the world is waking up from this delusion.

btw. If you have any good sources of info on this topic I welcome them. I am open for debate.

Where are you from?

"Copium" was a term made for Russian sources who clearly have zero honesty and whose followers can't accept the realities that we are seeing. If pro-Ukrainian sources' information was frequently shown to be untrue and not resembling the battlefield, then that would be something different. But because Russians insist on lying, re-framing bad news in a way that removes their responsibility or deflects what appears to be the reality on the ground, "copium" will much more describe Russian sources than pro-Ukrainian ones. Don't even get me started on Russian MoD spokesperson Igor Konashenkov. That guy is Baghdad Bob 2.0, everything that comes out of his mouth is complete horseshit, even Russians on Russian channels despise him and actively make fun of him still.

Mearshimer, he's a political scientist. Nothing more. Blames the west and Ukraine for everything and seemingly places zero culpability on Putin, Shoigu or anything Russian. That's not "reasonable" and is very suspect. He also insisted that Russia "only" wanted to take over the eastern territories but could not explain why the Russians attempted a headlong rush into Kyiv which failed miserably. Red flag. Russia obviously wanted to take over the entire country, that's painfully obvious.

Notable quote from Mearshimer, "If you really want to wreck Russia, what you should do is to encourage it to try to conquer Ukraine. Putin is much too smart to try that". Not very well known that one, aged like milk.

Missile strikes in Poland, it appears that was a Ukrainian S-300 that had likely intercepted a Russian ballistic missile and both crashed in Poland. There was more than one impact. Not sure where you're going with that. Multiple sources in the west have stated this including the US President and I agree with that from what I've seen.

Bucha - there's quite a bit of evidence that Russians rounded up civilians who were employed by Ukrainian Territorial Defense bureaus and summarily shot. That video of them being led away with their hands behind their back by Russian uniforms next that geolocated building where their bodies were found. There's more evidence for this than anything else. Russians have been known for their brutal tactics, it appears not much has changed. Americans did some of this in Vietnam. Welcome to war. The Russians fucked up and the insistence that Russians troops did not commit war crimes in Bucha is quite frankly ludicrous. Ukrainians have also executed Russian POW's. I've posted those videos here in the past and I have said multiple times that these are war crimes.

Ghost of Kyiv - the earliest "media" of this was from a literal video game and it was obvious. His purported exploits in reality appear to be the work of more than one Ukrainian pilot, at least one of which was killed early in the war. Who cares.

Snake Island. The Russians threatened the guys on it, a Ukrainian said "Russian warship go fuck yourself." And Ukrainians were told they were all killed by Russia. Later it turned out they were still alive and were released. Russia later got bombed by Ukr Su-27's and long range artillery and they left. Who cares.

[WonderMomma]

Yeah... he lost me at saying something about Ukraine being more corrupt and crooked than Russia.

Yet another bullshit guise to excuse what Russia is doing. I don't understand why people can't just admit what this is really about. Fear, resources, land, power and antiquated ideals of the Soviet era.

I can't respect or even begin to want to debate with lies, innuendo, and excuses.

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Originally Posted by WonderMomma ↗

Yeah... he lost me at saying something about Ukraine being more corrupt and crooked than Russia.

Yet another bullshit guise to excuse what Russia is doing. I don't understand why people can't just admit what this is really about. Fear, resources, land, power and antiquated ideals of the Soviet era.

I can't respect or even begin to want to debate with lies, innuendo, and excuses.

I can't help myself. One particular person I know personally IRL was all pro-Russia up until like July/August and he admitted to me that the only real reason he was pro-Russia was because of Biden and other liberal European leaders who were helping Ukraine. He hates them, so he made an emotional decision. That's literally it. So he surrounded himself with that sort of echo chamber and at some point he realized it was bullshit. Russia losing swaths of territory and it not matching the pro-Rus media he was gobbling up. He was embarassed that he believed it.

[Wailode]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

Where are you from?

"Copium" was a term made for Russian sources who clearly have zero honesty and whose followers can't accept the realities that we are seeing. If pro-Ukrainian sources' information was frequently shown to be untrue and not resembling the battlefield, then that would be something different. But because Russians insist on lying, re-framing bad news in a way that removes their responsibility or deflects what appears to be the reality on the ground, "copium" will much more describe Russian sources than pro-Ukrainian ones. Don't even get me started on Russian MoD spokesperson Igor Konashenkov. That guy is Baghdad Bob 2.0, everything that comes out of his mouth is complete horseshit, even Russians on Russian channels despise him and actively make fun of him still.

Mearshimer, he's a political scientist. Nothing more. Blames the west and Ukraine for everything and seemingly places zero culpability on Putin, Shoigu or anything Russian. That's not "reasonable" and is very suspect. He also insisted that Russia "only" wanted to take over the eastern territories but could not explain why the Russians attempted a headlong rush into Kyiv which failed miserably. Red flag. Russia obviously wanted to take over the entire country, that's painfully obvious.

Notable quote from Mearshimer, "If you really want to wreck Russia, what you should do is to encourage it to try to conquer Ukraine. Putin is much too smart to try that". Not very well known that one, aged like milk.

Missile strikes in Poland, it appears that was a Ukrainian S-300 that had likely intercepted a Russian ballistic missile and both crashed in Poland. There was more than one impact. Not sure where you're going with that. Multiple sources in the west have stated this including the US President and I agree with that from what I've seen.

Bucha - there's quite a bit of evidence that Russians rounded up civilians who were employed by Ukrainian Territorial Defense bureaus and summarily shot. That video of them being led away with their hands behind their back by Russian uniforms next that geolocated building where their bodies were found. There's more evidence for this than anything else. Russians have been known for their brutal tactics, it appears not much has changed. Americans did some of this in Vietnam. Welcome to war. The Russians fucked up and the insistence that Russians troops did not commit war crimes in Bucha is quite frankly ludicrous. Ukrainians have also executed Russian POW's. I've posted those videos here in the past and I have said multiple times that these are war crimes.

Ghost of Kyiv - the earliest "media" of this was from a literal video game and it was obvious. His purported exploits in reality appear to be the work of more than one Ukrainian pilot, at least one of which was killed early in the war. Who cares.

Snake Island. The Russians threatened the guys on it, a Ukrainian said "Russian warship go fuck yourself." And Ukrainians were told they were all killed by Russia. Later it turned out they were still alive and were released. Russia later got bombed by Ukr Su-27's and long range artillery and they left. Who cares.

Lying is on both fronts. For example both ukraine and russia lying about casaulties. Its part of proxy warfare. Problem is when its beyond believable straight-up bullshiting with ukraine do a lot in cases I mentioned above. Straight up out of reality lies and false flags all the time. Thats why Zelensky lost all credibility and most of people now in balkan and east from czech see him as another dictator or extremist who cant find reason for diplomacy of any sort.


All he knows is asking for endless suport and others to fight for him and his ideals about "democracy" with is total joke when we look at Ukraine and its corruption. People joke about him everywhere here. Maybe you dont know how facebook or telegram looks like in eastern countries, but here its totally different then for example , facebook or twitter in canada.


Also its a lot different with Putin. He is still viewed as reasonable leader. He is even critized in russia that he was slow and soft with these criminals in ukraine. Still he raised in popularity even against all odds and biggest propaganda machine from west.

People can see throught it easily. Truth is also that russians will not back-down from this. I saw many ukraine people and their nature first hand. Russians will not tolerate this. Its existential for them. Westerners have problems to realize this. For them its just another color revolution. For russians is matter of defense and liberation of their own man.

Ukraine is full of neo-nazis and shovinistic people who for decades put all dirt on their russian neighbours. Its even worse then antisemitism. They call them pigs, orcs and many of captured soldiers got cut off genitelia etc. not mentioning executions. And worse thing is that they are teaching this nonsense mentality even to children. Now they strike donbass on daily basis. Ukraine will never again be whole as borders are now. Crimes that were done under this regime will be remembered for decades. So many good people who were more moderate and less shovinistic fell under this trap of warmonger machine.

Banning of opposite parties, media, people who refused to bow down to far-right nationalism regime who worship bandera. Neo-nazi batalions who search houses like KGB in past and killing - torturing possible separatist or people who doesnt follow war narative. And all this supported by collective west from warm of far away home who doesnt have to see it first hand. But consequences of this failed diplomacy and supporting full-scale war will reach even west soon.


Mearsheimer is realist. Not some dreamer like most of fake news in western propaganda supported by democratic party and other warmongers. I remember first 3 months of brainwashing in CNN and other news. Every-day they called it unprovoken full scale war from day one. Straigh up lying. Not informing on anything and why it even happened. People were just used to fuel up propaganda of another war that was created by greedines and failed diplomacy of eu and west. Ukraine made many many mistakes and only fool doesnt see it. Not mentioning 8 long years of fight „against separatist“ circa 14k death people, 200 children or odessa massacre – burned corpses of „separatists“ or how they call them „terrorists“. For ukraine nazi regime is almost everyone who doesnt fall to their far right nacionalism terrorist. Its sad mentality.

Poland missile was clear false flag used by many politicians. Also information about bucha is now well known and documented. Lavrov talked about it a lot in OSN. Problem is that most of west is now rusophobic and is not capable of reasonable discussion without war propaganda. West sadly understand only argument ad baculum – argument of power and Russia is not scared of this confrontation. There is now 300 000 people on the field and more is coming. Balkan and eastern countries will not backdown and most of them are neutral due to western hypocricy and falling narative. Its very sad state of things and it cant be now finished just with diplomacy. It passed this point long time ago by sending weapons to ukraine. Backing down nazi-regime full of crimes was fatal mistake made by west.

Snake island was straight up lie, same as ghost of kiev and many more. All of this didnt helped to change narative. It backfired and ukraine lost almost all of credibility. They are maybe „heroes“ in canada or usa, maybe england.. but in middle or east europe people see bigger picture. Especially turkey, hungary, slovakia, czech and balkan are tired of this propaganda. Thats why some goverments were already removed and geopolitic shift happened. People now laugh on idea of „western democracy“. Its american dream that never worked. Just plain lies and bullshiting. Most color revolutions are about money, power and greedines.

And yeah. To quesiton where I am from. I am from Slovakia. I even work with some ukraine folks here. Some of them are really nice people but clearly you can find also many of them with shovinistic tendencies and rusophobia that is very deeply rotten and disgusting. Almost like possession and hatred. I dont have sympathy for people who base their life on hate and ethnic discrimination.

[WonderMomma]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

I can't help myself. One particular person I know personally IRL was all pro-Russia up until like July/August and he admitted to me that the only real reason he was pro-Russia was because of Biden and other liberal European leaders who were helping Ukraine. He hates them, so he made an emotional decision. That's literally it. So he surrounded himself with that sort of echo chamber and at some point he realized it was bullshit. Russia losing swaths of territory and it not matching the pro-Rus media he was gobbling up. He was embarassed that he believed it.

I suppose it could be similar for many pro-Russian supporters from the west... they are so disgusted with the democratic system they support anything that goes against them. I don't blame them but don't agree with aligning to something just because it goes against what one loathes.

Happy to hear your friend had that experience to see through it all.

Truth be told, and I've said this before, the entire political climate in the US is disgusting. It's like watching two bitches bickering and pointing fingers to each other completely unconscious of their own faults and mistakes. What's worse is it trickles down to everyone and everything around them.

It's all fucked.