[wildaxboxer]

Originally Posted by William May ↗

They said she was tossed 360 feet, some of it sliding down the pavement. Both her legs are broken with multiple fractures, plus a lot of skin damage from the pavement sliding. It must have hurt like a bastard.

Poor women, when i heard she was still in her cabin seat behind the pilot, it reminded me of the Lockerbie disaster, a farmer was out looking for debris from the aircraft, turned the corner on his tracktor, and was faced with 3 people still in the seats lying on the farm road in front of him, looked as if they were sleeping...What a site

[William May]

Originally Posted by wildaxboxer ↗

Poor women, when i heard she was still in her cabin seat behind the pilot, it reminded me of the Lockerbie disaster, a farmer was out looking for debris from the aircraft, turned the corner on his tracktor, and was faced with 3 people still in the seats lying on the farm road in front of him, looked as if they were sleeping...What a site

When I worked at America West Airlines in the late 80's/early 90's, I worked with the guy who did the last maintenance on that Lockerbie aircraft, in New York, before it flew back to Germany and wound up with the bomb on it.

They had a bad CSD drive on the #1 engine. The CSD (Constant Speed Drive) is like an automatic transmission that constantly is upshifting or downshifting so the Integrated Drive Generator is always running at 400 cycles for power generation. It does this at ANY speed the actual jet engine is running at, so throttle movements don't affect the generators in any way. The CSD does this constantly, and imperceptibly, so the generator never sees anything other than 400 rpm with which to generate electricity. The CSD mounts on the engine accessory gearbox, and then the actual generator mounts on the front of it. If the CSD or the Generator malfunctions, they can generate ALL kinds of problems for the operating system on the aircraft, so they are considered critical items. A SINGLE one of these units will supply ALL needed power for a 747, but it has one on each engine, with independent switching systems, so the aircraft will NEVER lose electrical power or system functions. Then there is ALSO a 5th unit like that, mounted on the APU, in case of emergencies.

Anyway, he took off the generator, removed the CSD and replaced it, put the generator back in place, serviced the oil on both units, and ran the engine to confirm it passed all the power tests. Everything was good. He got done about 3 am. He said as he loaded his stuff in the line truck, and walked away from the aircraft, he looked back at the airplane, under all the bright lights at the airport, and though how beautiful the airplane looked.

When the Lockerbie accident happened, the FAA, FBI, and Airline Maintenance staff called him and said he needed to come in to work RIGHT THEN, and that the aircraft he had changed the CSD on, had crashed in Scotland, and they needed to talk to him.

He went in and got grilled for about 6 hours, as they reviewed ALL the paperwork for the CSD change, all the manual paperwork he had (which was everything, he printed stuff out before a job and hung onto it afterwards just for safety's sake. It was still in his toolbox.)

They looked at his tools, and pulled every special tool and torque wrench that he had used for the work, everything that the company supplied to do the work, even the hydraulic lift that was used to lift the CSD and generator into position so they could be attached to the engine.

He had not had any problems with the CSD change, and he was a good mechanic, so he racked his brain for the next 2 days, trying to think of what he might have done wrong, and thinking of all the people he might have just killed.

They told him he was off of work until the investigation was completed, and should not leave New York without telling them if he was going somewhere.

He said he thought about suicide, and when he got a call directly from the Lockerbie site, from investigators, (Again about 2 am in the morning!) saying they had located the engine, and found nothing wrong with it, other than the damage from the crash, and had determined there was actually a bomb on board, and THAT was what brought the aircraft down, with NOTHING connected to his CSD change or any other work that he had done, he said it was the greatest relief he EVER had in his entire life. All that consumed in since the first phone call, had been his thoughts of all the people and their families, and how he might have destroyed all those lives.

He was one of the very first to know that a bomb had brought down the aircraft,(About an hour or so after they started putting the bomb damage together, and concentrating on THAT) but the bomb investigation was just getting started, and they told him NOT to mention ANYTHING about the crash to ANYONE, until they officially released information.

A few years after that, when I got my first computer, I was looking at Scotland (Actually, for something else, probably Leprechauns or some obscure castle or something) on Google Earth, and came across a farm field, where all the wreckage had been stored. I guess they actually rented a farm to store it all on, and what was not connected to the bomb was just laying out in this farm field, all the piles of wreckage and the different parts. I saw the engine there, and considered trying to find out who owned the farm field it all was stored on, but figured they would never sell just that piece, but I wanted to get the CSD, and make it into a coffee table for him. I decided to not even try, because I did not think he was going to be really happy having that in his living room.

But now, I WISH I had made the effort! All of that material has probably been crushed and destroyed and recycled, and that CSD would have been the last remaining part of the Lockerbie aircraft. It really was historical, like the fragments of the Hindenburg Zeppelin that blew up in 1937, which are now prized by museums.

But I never did anything. so that is history lost now. One of my regrets.

[wildaxboxer]

Originally Posted by William May ↗

When I worked at America West Airlines in the late 80's/early 90's, I worked with the guy who did the last maintenance on that Lockerbie aircraft, in New York, before it flew back to Germany and wound up with the bomb on it.

They had a bad CSD drive on the #1 engine. The CSD (Constant Speed Drive) is like an automatic transmission that constantly is upshifting or downshifting so the Integrated Drive Generator is always running at 400 cycles for power generation. It does this at ANY speed the actual jet engine is running at, so throttle movements don't affect the generators in any way. The CSD does this constantly, and imperceptibly, so the generator never sees anything other than 400 rpm with which to generate electricity. The CSD mounts on the engine accessory gearbox, and then the actual generator mounts on the front of it. If the CSD or the Generator malfunctions, they can generate ALL kinds of problems for the operating system on the aircraft, so they are considered critical items. A SINGLE one of these units will supply ALL needed power for a 747, but it has one on each engine, with independent switching systems, so the aircraft will NEVER lose electrical power or system functions. Then there is ALSO a 5th unit like that, mounted on the APU, in case of emergencies.

Anyway, he took off the generator, removed the CSD and replaced it, put the generator back in place, serviced the oil on both units, and ran the engine to confirm it passed all the power tests. Everything was good. He got done about 3 am. He said as he loaded his stuff in the line truck, and walked away from the aircraft, he looked back at the airplane, under all the bright lights at the airport, and though how beautiful the airplane looked.

When the Lockerbie accident happened, the FAA, FBI, and Airline Maintenance staff called him and said he needed to come in to work RIGHT THEN, and that the aircraft he had changed the CSD on, had crashed in Scotland, and they needed to talk to him.

He went in and got grilled for about 6 hours, as they reviewed ALL the paperwork for the CSD change, all the manual paperwork he had (which was everything, he printed stuff out before a job and hung onto it afterwards just for safety's sake. It was still in his toolbox.)

They looked at his tools, and pulled every special tool and torque wrench that he had used for the work, everything that the company supplied to do the work, even the hydraulic lift that was used to lift the CSD and generator into position so they could be attached to the engine.

He had not had any problems with the CSD change, and he was a good mechanic, so he racked his brain for the next 2 days, trying to think of what he might have done wrong, and thinking of all the people he might have just killed.

They told him he was off of work until the investigation was completed, and should not leave New York without telling them if he was going somewhere.

He said he thought about suicide, and when he got a call directly from the Lockerbie site, from investigators, (Again about 2 am in the morning!) saying they had located the engine, and found nothing wrong with it, other than the damage from the crash, and had determined there was actually a bomb on board, and THAT was what brought the aircraft down, with NOTHING connected to his CSD change or any other work that he had done, he said it was the greatest relief he EVER had in his entire life. All that consumed in since the first phone call, had been his thoughts of all the people and their families, and how he might have destroyed all those lives.

He was one of the very first to know that a bomb had brought down the aircraft,(About an hour or so after they started putting the bomb damage together, and concentrating on THAT) but the bomb investigation was just getting started, and they told him NOT to mention ANYTHING about the crash to ANYONE, until they officially released information.

A few years after that, when I got my first computer, I was looking at Scotland (Actually, for something else, probably Leprechauns or some obscure castle or something) on Google Earth, and came across a farm field, where all the wreckage had been stored. I guess they actually rented a farm to store it all on, and what was not connected to the bomb was just laying out in this farm field, all the piles of wreckage and the different parts. I saw the engine there, and considered trying to find out who owned the farm field it all was stored on, but figured they would never sell just that piece, but I wanted to get the CSD, and make it into a coffee table for him. I decided to not even try, because I did not think he was going to be really happy having that in his living room.

But now, I WISH I had made the effort! All of that material has probably been crushed and destroyed and recycled, and that CSD would have been the last remaining part of the Lockerbie aircraft. It really was historical, like the fragments of the Hindenburg Zeppelin that blew up in 1937, which are now prized by museums.

But I never did anything. so that is history lost now. One of my regrets.

That was an amazing read mate, that poor guy must have been shattered thinking he might have done something wrong, that made the plane come down.

I can understand you feeling a little dubious about making that coffee table from the CSD, and giving it to your friend, but what a piece of history that would have been, even if you kept it for your self.

I visited Lockerbie in 1990 on the way down south, it was hard to believe such a horrendous thing happened in such a small place, place was imaculate as if nothing had happened until you seen the Memorial.

Thanks for the info mate much appretiated...you really should have made that coffee table from the CSD

[William May]

Originally Posted by wildaxboxer ↗

That was an amazing read mate, that poor guy must have been shattered thinking he might have done something wrong, that made the plane come down.

I can understand you feeling a little dubious about making that coffee table from the CSD, and giving it to your friend, but what a piece of history that would have been, even if you kept it for your self.

I visited Lockerbie in 1990 on the way down south, it was hard to believe such a horrendous thing happened in such a small place, place was imaculate as if nothing had happened until you seen the Memorial.

Thanks for the info mate much appretiated...you really should have made that coffee table from the CSD

Yes, I REALLY regret not at least TRYING to do it. I figured the British investigators would mark me off as a nut case, or tell me to fuck off, but then I thought, since it was NOT actually connected to the case, and eventually EVERYTHING went to the scrappers, it SHOULD have been possible for me to get that part, since EVERYTHING went into a furnace eventually. What I SHOULD have done was try and find the owners of that farm field, and asked them to contact me when the time finally came for it all to be cleared away and scrapped. Eventually ALL that stuff gets scrapped.

I just read a few months ago, where they were finally scrapping and getting rid of all the wreckage from the Flight 800, the 747 that blew up from old wiring in a fuel tank over the ocean off New York. It had been in a warehouse where they did the reassembly of the pieces to do the investigation, and had finally decided to clear the warehouse and were scrapping it all. I think that was there for about 20 years in that warehouse.

So there obviously WAS a chance, and I just missed it. Too bad.

[wildaxboxer]

Originally Posted by William May ↗

Yes, I REALLY regret not at least TRYING to do it. I figured the British investigators would mark me off as a nut case, or tell me to fuck off, but then I thought, since it was NOT actually connected to the case, and eventually EVERYTHING went to the scrappers, it SHOULD have been possible for me to get that part, since EVERYTHING went into a furnace eventually. What I SHOULD have done was try and find the owners of that farm field, and asked them to contact me when the time finally came for it all to be cleared away and scrapped. Eventually ALL that stuff gets scrapped.

I just read a few months ago, where they were finally scrapping and getting rid of all the wreckage from the Flight 800, the 747 that blew up from old wiring in a fuel tank over the ocean off New York. It had been in a warehouse where they did the reassembly of the pieces to do the investigation, and had finally decided to clear the warehouse and were scrapping it all. I think that was there for about 20 years in that warehouse.

So there obviously WAS a chance, and I just missed it. Too bad.

I think even telling them your friend worked on the plane, might have went against you, worried in case you were going to make money off it...But the bottom line is, it would come down to the type of person/people you talked to on your quest, guys like me, Ahhhh fill your boots mate no good to anyone now.

I would have thought all the stuff not needed for the investigation, would have been destroyed years ago, must be like my Mrs she throws nothing out, apart from me on occasions

Don't beat yourself up, the jobsworths would have put all sorts of obstacles in your way, wonder if the farmer made any furniture from the parts he found

[William May]

Originally Posted by wildaxboxer ↗

I think even telling them your friend worked on the plane, might have went against you, worried in case you were going to make money off it...But the bottom line is, it would come down to the type of person/people you talked to on your quest, guys like me, Ahhhh fill your boots mate no good to anyone now.

I would have thought all the stuff not needed for the investigation, would have been destroyed years ago, must be like my Mrs she throws nothing out, apart from me on occasions

Don't beat yourself up, the jobsworths would have put all sorts of obstacles in your way, wonder if the farmer made any furniture from the parts he found

Well, the Boeing 747 wiring investigation went on for years, and actually had a HUGE effect on the aviation industry, with millions of wire bundles needing to be changed. It wasn't just Boeing, but EVERY aircraft manufacturer, and every wiring supplier. It even affected us at Learjet, although we rarely found any damage from old wiring. Learjet used the NASA Wiring and Soldering handbook, so the standards were VERY HIGH on our aircraft. I still have a copy of the Learjet Wiring Standards book, which was basically just lifted from the NASA publication for spacecraft wiring.

You can probably GOOGLE the "Aircraft Aging Wiring Problem" and they will refer to flight 800 and what they found in the investigation. That was what started the whole wiring thing.

I think the NASA wiring standards are now used throughout the aviation industry. Learjet always had REALLY good engineers, and just that one thing was one more step in staying ahead of all the competition, even though Learjet was always just a tiny company. It took 40 years for the competition to come up with faster aircraft than Learjets, or aircraft that could fly higher. Back in the 70's, 80's and even into the 90's, the ONLY aircraft that flew as high as Learjets were the SR-71, the U-2, the Space Shuttle, and Concorde. And when the Space Shuttle and Concorde went out of service, it was just US. Learjets didn't fly on the normal air routes, because they were 10K to 20K feet ABOVE all those routes. Since there were no other aircraft up there, they got DIRECT routes on pilot request, with no diversions, or changes en route. They were all straight line flights directly to where you were going, operating at the very TOP of the U.S. Airspace Route System. If you took off from L.A., and the degree heading you needed to fly to Chicago was 83 degrees, then you just flew straight from L.A. to Chicago on that heading. You might have diversions locally in L.A. or Chicago, when you got there, but once they cleared your climb from 20K feet to 41K feet, you were on your way. You never even interacted with ATC until you were ready to descend in Chicago, and descend into the airspace control muddle around that city.

[wildaxboxer]

Originally Posted by William May ↗

Well, the Boeing 747 wiring investigation went on for years, and actually had a HUGE effect on the aviation industry, with millions of wire bundles needing to be changed. It wasn't just Boeing, but EVERY aircraft manufacturer, and every wiring supplier. It even affected us at Learjet, although we rarely found any damage from old wiring. Learjet used the NASA Wiring and Soldering handbook, so the standards were VERY HIGH on our aircraft. I still have a copy of the Learjet Wiring Standards book, which was basically just lifted from the NASA publication for spacecraft wiring.

You can probably GOOGLE the "Aircraft Aging Wiring Problem" and they will refer to flight 800 and what they found in the investigation. That was what started the whole wiring thing.

I think the NASA wiring standards are now used throughout the aviation industry. Learjet always had REALLY good engineers, and just that one thing was one more step in staying ahead of all the competition, even though Learjet was always just a tiny company. It took 40 years for the competition to come up with faster aircraft than Learjets, or aircraft that could fly higher. Back in the 70's, 80's and even into the 90's, the ONLY aircraft that flew as high as Learjets were the SR-71, the U-2, the Space Shuttle, and Concorde. And when the Space Shuttle and Concorde went out of service, it was just US. Learjets didn't fly on the normal air routes, because they were 10K to 20K feet ABOVE all those routes. Since there were no other aircraft up there, they got DIRECT routes on pilot request, with no diversions, or changes en route. They were all straight line flights directly to where you were going, operating at the very TOP of the U.S. Airspace Route System. If you took off from L.A., and the degree heading you needed to fly to Chicago was 83 degrees, then you just flew straight from L.A. to Chicago on that heading. You might have diversions locally in L.A. or Chicago, when you got there, but once they cleared your climb from 20K feet to 41K feet, you were on your way. You never even interacted with ATC until you were ready to descend in Chicago, and descend into the airspace control muddle around that city.

Oh you are way clever than me William, you certainly know your way around the aviation industry, your bamboosling me now

It must be a helluva resposibility servicing and maintaing these big planes, the thought of just doing it frightens me, all the lifes that depend on you doing a good job like your friend did.When the cover comes of the engines, i am in aw they know were to start, the wiring alone scares the shit out of me

[William May]

Originally Posted by wildaxboxer ↗

Oh you are way clever than me William, you certainly know your way around the aviation industry, your bamboosling me now

It must be a helluva resposibility servicing and maintaing these big planes, the thought of just doing it frightens me, all the lifes that depend on you doing a good job like your friend did.When the cover comes of the engines, i am in aw they know were to start, the wiring alone scares the shit out of me

It really isn't that hard. We got a LOT of training at Learjet. I was sent to the jet engine school as well. When I started there as a humble mechanic, one of the first guys I worked under HAD BUILT AN ENTIRE JET AIRCRAFT BY HIMSELF, IN THE 1950'S. HE MADE EVERYTHING, EVEN THE LANDING GEAR STRUTS. The ONLY thing they bought was the jet engine. The guy who hired him was an engineer for Douglas Aircraft, and had a business in Tucson "Tucson Gear" but he designed a light jet to compete with the Cessna T-37 jet trainer and was going for that contract. They did not get the contract, as it went to Cessna at the end, but they built a really nice aircraft!

The tech data available is enormous, but it is all there for you to read. And we also had incredible tech reps, and constant contact with the actual engineers who could answer any thorny questions. The engineers were what I always called
"Apollo" engineers, because they didn't need computers. They could do their calculations on a piece of paper on the top of the wing, give you the piece of paper, and you could work from that until they had the drawing generated that was actually the true authority to do the work. They also confirmed the stress analysis and fatigue analysis on computers, but in my 32 years there, I NEVER had an occasion where anything changed after they gave us the sketch paper. They were all real GIANTS to me. They knew EVERYTHING about the subject they might be discussing. I got a LOT of explanations about why they did things, with them showing me why it might be important, or what could go wrong if it was disregarded. They were always just a phone call away, and we called them regularly if we had questions. Plus we worked carefully, and always had someone check our work over, even before we got an inspector to come out and stamp it off. If you stayed true to the manuals and the drawings, then your ass was always completely covered. I was learning the first day I started there, and was still learning the last day, when I retired. Even our test pilots were the very top ones in the world, perhaps just behind only the ones at NASA. Learjet was an AWESOME place to work. Very few layers of bureaucracy to work through. Each group was very small, and knew each other very well. There were very few slackers or people just holding down a job, because there was so much to be done, it was seen to be important work, and everyone paid attention to results.

We did all the interiors of the aircraft in Tucson. The aircraft were flown down "Green", that is, unpainted and empty, with a slave avionics package for the flight from Wichita to Tucson in the early days. In the 1980's, they actually moved aircraft production to Tucson, and built an entire factory on our site.

The upholstery and interior shops were, as far as I was concerned, the very best in the WORLD. They even made Rolls-Royce interiors look second rate. EVERYTHING was based on perfection.

Our paint shop turned out some of the best paint jobs ever put on aircraft. Some of them took as long as 6 WEEKS to lay out, after the base paint was applied. We had one painter who did a roaring Tiger on the tail of a Mexican airplane, per the customers pencil sketches. It took him 2 weeks with an airbrush to do. Then they sprayed a heavy clearcoat over it to keep the paint from chipping or deteriorating. To say it was magnificent was understating it. It was just STUNNING.

Most of the interior people did upholstery on the side as well. One guy made me 2 sets of motorcycle seat covers for my Harley. Another one redid the seats in my XK-8 Jaguar, and they looked far better than the originals. They counted the stitch numbers on each seam, and they had to be the same for each feature of the upholstery.

Every single person that you worked with, was an ABSOLUTE MASTER of their profession. It was inspiring to see so much commitment, and breathtaking to see the work turned out. Honestly, it made me a much better mechanic to have such high standards to follow and aspire to. I have always been glad I had the good fortune to work there.

[wildaxboxer]

Originally Posted by William May ↗

It really isn't that hard. We got a LOT of training at Learjet. I was sent to the jet engine school as well. When I started there as a humble mechanic, one of the first guys I worked under HAD BUILT AN ENTIRE JET AIRCRAFT BY HIMSELF, IN THE 1950'S. HE MADE EVERYTHING, EVEN THE LANDING GEAR STRUTS. The ONLY thing they bought was the jet engine. The guy who hired him was an engineer for Douglas Aircraft, and had a business in Tucson "Tucson Gear" but he designed a light jet to compete with the Cessna T-37 jet trainer and was going for that contract. They did not get the contract, as it went to Cessna at the end, but they built a really nice aircraft!

The tech data available is enormous, but it is all there for you to read. And we also had incredible tech reps, and constant contact with the actual engineers who could answer any thorny questions. The engineers were what I always called
"Apollo" engineers, because they didn't need computers. They could do their calculations on a piece of paper on the top of the wing, give you the piece of paper, and you could work from that until they had the drawing generated that was actually the true authority to do the work. They also confirmed the stress analysis and fatigue analysis on computers, but in my 32 years there, I NEVER had an occasion where anything changed after they gave us the sketch paper. They were all real GIANTS to me. They knew EVERYTHING about the subject they might be discussing. I got a LOT of explanations about why they did things, with them showing me why it might be important, or what could go wrong if it was disregarded. They were always just a phone call away, and we called them regularly if we had questions. Plus we worked carefully, and always had someone check our work over, even before we got an inspector to come out and stamp it off. If you stayed true to the manuals and the drawings, then your ass was always completely covered. I was learning the first day I started there, and was still learning the last day, when I retired. Even our test pilots were the very top ones in the world, perhaps just behind only the ones at NASA. Learjet was an AWESOME place to work. Very few layers of bureaucracy to work through. Each group was very small, and knew each other very well. There were very few slackers or people just holding down a job, because there was so much to be done, it was seen to be important work, and everyone paid attention to results.

We did all the interiors of the aircraft in Tucson. The aircraft were flown down "Green", that is, unpainted and empty, with a slave avionics package for the flight from Wichita to Tucson in the early days. In the 1980's, they actually moved aircraft production to Tucson, and built an entire factory on our site.

The upholstery and interior shops were, as far as I was concerned, the very best in the WORLD. They even made Rolls-Royce interiors look second rate. EVERYTHING was based on perfection.

Our paint shop turned out some of the best paint jobs ever put on aircraft. Some of them took as long as 6 WEEKS to lay out, after the base paint was applied. We had one painter who did a roaring Tiger on the tail of a Mexican airplane, per the customers pencil sketches. It took him 2 weeks with an airbrush to do. Then they sprayed a heavy clearcoat over it to keep the paint from chipping or deteriorating. To say it was magnificent was understating it. It was just STUNNING.

Most of the interior people did upholstery on the side as well. One guy made me 2 sets of motorcycle seat covers for my Harley. Another one redid the seats in my XK-8 Jaguar, and they looked far better than the originals. They counted the stitch numbers on each seam, and they had to be the same for each feature of the upholstery.

Every single person that you worked with, was an ABSOLUTE MASTER of their profession. It was inspiring to see so much commitment, and breathtaking to see the work turned out. Honestly, it made me a much better mechanic to have such high standards to follow and aspire to. I have always been glad I had the good fortune to work there.

After reading all the stuff you have written William, you have just blown the myth out the window, people who frequent sites like this are brainless sick fks...Even clever folk like to laugh at other fools mishaps, and there is plenty on here to see, i dont bother with the other sites, my son goes on them, but i dont bother, DR has more than enough for me..

"They could do their calculations on a piece of paper written on the wing"...Sorry you would be taking off with me still leaning on the wing with a puzzled look on my face

You certainly have lead a busy life, doing a job you loved, I watch all the aircraft documentries when i can, mostly late at night. Seen a clip on facebook last night about the 3 worse air show disasters in history, I think the worse was in Ukraine, you will know the one its on here, the pilot had no authority to do the manover, think he gut 14 years in prison, reduced on appeal, legs and body parts all over the run way, horendouse sight.

There is an air show about 40 miles from me down the coast in September, i must make an effort to go this year, it is over the sea, so i should be safe lol

[William May]

Yes, I have had a tremendously lucky life. I am aware of the Russian accident you mention. I think that was the worst in history, if I remember correctly, with DOZENS of people killed on the ground, and like you say, body parts scattered all over the place. In the thousands of flights I have taken, and in the hundreds of test flights I was on for one reason or another, I have NEVER ONCE been nervous or apprehensive. Our pilots were incredibly skilled, very knowledgeable, and never did any of that "Hero Test Pilot" stuff that you read about or see in the movies. Everything they did was for a reason, was explained, and the results were noted, plotted, graphed, and recorded. It was all very calm, business like, and logical. One issue at a time, carefully explored, and results documented.