[Kanda444]

Yea, but my point excludes picking and prodding through millions of "god's" laws, but more so on the impact of government laws based on christian morals.... even in today's society, a none practicing religious person, that may claim he "believes in god, just never goes to church" obeys the governing laws that was written in stone by god to the utmost possible way, but at the same time, do other things that risk his freedom that are that of laws written solely by man..No i don't mean the impact is so great that 100% of people don't steal, kill, etc because of gods bearing in a few particular laws that keeps us from being murderous neanderthals, I do however believe that, having that in mind for some (subconsciously) helps reduces the numbers Greatly..

And i believe it starts from childhood. Our parents like moses, brings a bigger god then even themselves when it came to teaching us right from wrong on major crimes. On small petty ones, that are mom and pop made, we rebelled immediately when we could migrate if we chose too, and come to terms they are an equal entity as yourself, they lose their godlike power over you (keeping respect but not same adolescent/parent power). But not every one ends up rebelling with murder, and thefts, and inhuman things., I believe its because, in a subconscious state of mind, the fear of this LAW rather we care is written actually by god or man, is somehow still of a higher being than even our parents, and man all together.

i just have more respect for my fellow humans, i suppose, and believe that they are fully capable of being good without threats of a god that has no proof to support it. people dont need to be lied to to be good. like Steven Weinberg said, "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Of course it is, anyway to the none believer. But we as none believers have come to a rational conclusion of not needing the crutch of a god as guidance to make out decisions of life, morals, and good judgment, we have just decided we enjoy the good side of things and still practice good intentions. I'm afraid we can't say the same for every person that co-exist can manage to do the same.

nobody is suggesting the whole world give up religion. instead, we give up teaching nonsense like creationism to children and stop our governments from dealing in religious matters. there is a huge difference between claiming that i want religion to vanish (it wont) and claiming i want a secular government (which is what i want)

Thing of it is, and this coming from an atheist, pushing religion totally out of "public" school in a sense is also forcing the opposite belief. Christians are also a part of the state (and on topic, this state wouldn't exist without them) The state should take take this into consideration and separate the two, and the "public" christian still get the same benefits of a free public school system too..and not be forced to pay taxes, plus send their kids to private expensiveness schools, see the more in this? Christian families paying taxes for public schools of future atheist, and paying private schools to boot

not at all. nobody is saying that schools should teach atheism... just that they should only teach actual science and not religious myths, like creationism. Evolution is proven to the same degree as the theory of gravity



so, again, to say that creationism should be allowed in schools is the exact same as arguing for alchemy classes along with chemistry classes. this is about teaching children actual, proven science... this is not about social or religious ideologies.

Originally Posted by TheVrist ↗

Ancient people may not have had Christ, they however had gods that set the moral boundaries of their social standards. And basically the end of point for me, is for several thousand years, the current "god" has been the fundamental benchmark for who we are as a society today. I also think we are already on a downward spiral from the good we finally became from this Imaginary being. Morally we are becoming even more corrupt with every generation, kids are exposed to more at influential stages in their lives that most of us never imagined until we were already fully adults. Future kids past the newer generation, then the next could be fully numb to the idea of any higher being than man, so fears no "eternal" consequences on a subconscious level of thinking, thus having only armed government to control the mass of bred and born sociopaths, who will only have the desire to escape the oppression, and rebel against the new mortal daddy {Govt.}

there is no evidence to support the idea that we are becoming 'more and more corrupt'. we now have access to mad amounts of information... we can see first hand how the rest of the world lives. just because we finally have access to it doesnt mean it's somehow less moral in the world. if you believe society is getting less moral, how to you account for the progress made in human rights in western society? the bible promotes slavery....the US has slavery until 1863... but Buddhists in third century abolished slavery as well and Buddhists do not believe in God. the idea that a god is needed for people to do good things is a myth. people do not need to be lied to...

regardless, nobody is suggesting people being forced to give up their gods. all that is being requested is that they keep it out of government. the government has no place promoting an idea, like god, that cannot be proven. there are two current theocracies in the world today.... i wouldnt live in either.

[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by niknik ↗

I'll suggest that christianity is full of good. And we're not paying for them either. They have tax exemptions. They don't get checks from the government. Which makes sense, since they often have programs that help less fortunate. Fact is if you banned organized religion, and took the exemption. America would have a humanitarian crisis. Who do you think is the largest provider of humanitarian aid in the world? Christian organizations. In my city alone the feed, clothe, house, and protect many homeless and less fortunate citizens. The past shouldn't matter. Today's Christians aren't causing wars or violence. They are not perfect, but they are not a parasite. I don't think people realize how much good they do.

nobody has said organized religion should be banned.... that isnt freedom. i support people's right to follow whatever religion they want. we should not pay for it, however, and it should not be replacing actual proven science, like evolution, with pseudoscience, like creationism, in public schools to appease the religious.

if you are arguing that religious entities are good because they do social work, then realize that Hamas also does social work.

Hamas Victory Is Built on Social Work

you're also saying that the Mob under Al Capone was a good thing since Capone opened a successful soup kitchen during the depression. social work doesnt require god and it doesnt have a monopoly on doing good deeds, as you know. the reason the majority of humanitarian aid in america comes from christians is because the majority of americans (83%) are christian.

also, you very much do pay for religion. churches dont pay property tax, yet they benefit from social services like emergency services. we (tax payers) pay for that. Religious organizations can make financial investments but pay no capital gains tax. Religious entities dont pay sales tax when buying good or services. Religious leaders also are allowed to ride off housing (including their mortgages) from their taxable income. so, the leaders of the mega churches... you pay their taxes. a professor and his students from the University of Tampa did a study on it and found that religious tax exemptions and subsidies amount to $71,000,000,000 annually. (sources 1 2)

the reason christians today in western society arent causing wars like muslims are is because they are not having their religious lifestyle oppressed like muslims feel theirs is. in africa, there is still brutal attacks carried out by tribalistic christians, so christian 'peacefulness' is a western thing.

[TheVrist]

You give to much faith in the human race kandaa, when I get rich im going to take you on my next world tour.

[b0g]

Originally Posted by rob666 ↗

I think people in Europe figured out long ago that politics and religion don't mix. They're way ahead of us in a lot of ways.

from the early colonisation of USA, all European folks who had an extreme or bizar form of religion were looked frown upon, or made to move away by the pope or mainstreamers. Spanish inquisition was not too long ago ...

That's why you find - for a European - so many strange beliefs in the USA.

[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by TheVrist ↗

You give to much faith in the human race kandaa, when I get rich im going to take you on my next world tour.

nope, i have respect for human dignity and assume that if you and i can be moral and godless, anybody can i feel you are greatly underestimating the power of information and education.

[winvens]

Originally Posted by the hawk ↗

much tl;dr

many paragraph

wow

#milisecondattentionspan

[TheVrist]

Originally Posted by Kanda444 ↗

nope, i have respect for human dignity and assume that if you and i can be moral and godless, anybody can i feel you are greatly underestimating the power of information and education.

And I believe you still have some life to live before making that assessment of other people.

Respect, doesn't go hand in hand with faith and hope. I don't disrespect dignity when it is present. But like any other respect, it is something earned, not given freely, there is no precursor for obtaining it beforehand.

I only say I can, because I can humbly admit my strength in being an atheist with good moral standing is possibly from being a down stream product of christian moral upbringing. (something most refuse to admit) And I can as a person stop beating my chest like a baboon over my stance, long enough to question my own ability to do the same, had I come at a later century when science, govt. and "progressive" movements has finally turned the world eyes away from any hope beyond their time on earth.

Or maybe I just have the ability to explore the negative side to my belief system.

[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by TheVrist ↗

And I believe you still have some life to live before making that assessment of other people.

Respect, doesn't go hand in hand with faith and hope. I don't disrespect dignity when it is present. But like any other respect, it is something earned, not given freely, there is no precursor for obtaining it beforehand.

I only say I can, because I can humbly admit my strength in being an atheist with good moral standing is possibly from being a down stream product of christian moral upbringing. (something most refuse to admit) And I can as a person stop beating my chest like a baboon over my stance, long enough to question my own ability to do the same, had I come at a later century when science, govt. and "progressive" movements has finally turned the world eyes away from any hope beyond their time on earth.

Or maybe I just have the ability to explore the negative side to my belief system.

with all due respect, who the fuck are you to judge my ability to assess society? You know me from here.....you would have to be alarmingly naive to assume you knew anybody that well based on the limited interaction we've had. The fact is, I've spent more of my life as a Christian than an atheist and I behave in a far more moral way now. My morals have changed dramatically....So it seems your experience with yourself isn't adequate enough for you to accurately judge others experiences, especially when you barely know the person.

The fact is that there is no evidence you have presented to support your claim that people need to be lied to in order to be moral. History argues against your position as well. Compare a secular government ( the US) and compare it to a theocratic government (Iran). Repeating your claim that people need to be lied to and made to believe in an omnipresent dictator to maintain morals doesn't make it true.

It's also beside the point since I'm talking about removing religion from government (secularism) as the constitution already stipulates:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

No promotion or prohibition of religion or religious ideals. Removing religion (as I've said) is not only not my desire but not realistic....however, in your hypothetical, no....there is no evidence to support the idea that a secular or atheistic society would be less moral that a theocratic one.

[Kanda444]

Also, if your morals came from Christianity but you're atheist, then you prove my point....with education, a person can be taught morals and still not need a god.

[Pigeon]

Don't teach religion in public schools.