[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by niknik ↗

Anything John Stewart says should be taken with a grain of salt.

absolutely... it was more the words i was after, not the person that said them. im not a Stewart fan at all, really. i dont think he's nearly as profound as most stoners seem to think he is

[TheVrist]

Originally Posted by Kanda444 ↗

like i said (well, Hitch said it for me) religion is their favorite toy. you cant take it away.

you are talking about the sudden disappearance of religion with no education to replace it. i dont think either of our views are likely to happen. Well not a sudden disappearance, more a none existent as an example of what our common social standard would be, more hypothetical i suppose.

the religious aspect will always be there... but to have a fully secular government? well.... we have no idea how that would work since there hasnt been an example of one yet. any government has the potential for abuse and oppression... but i dont think there is any evidence at all to support the idea that religion keeps people in line or in any way forms their actual morals. as an example, most christian people can only recite a few of the first set of the ten commandments... and are shocked when they are reminded that there was a second set of commandments (Which include not boiling a baby goat in it's mother's milk...). When you ask them if they would be ok with selling their daughters into slavery, they overwhelmingly say that isnt moral... yet, at the same time that god gave moses the first ten commandments, god also gave moses law regarding the selling of daughters into slavery. if the bible is the source for morals, why is it filled with ideas modern society sees as immoral? the answer is because people dont honestly get their morals from religious sources.
Yea, but my point excludes picking and prodding through millions of "god's" laws, but more so on the impact of government laws based on christian morals.... even in today's society, a none practicing religious person, that may claim he "believes in god, just never goes to church" obeys the governing laws that was written in stone by god to the utmost possible way, but at the same time, do other things that risk his freedom that are that of laws written solely by man..No i don't mean the impact is so great that 100% of people don't steal, kill, etc because of gods bearing in a few particular laws that keeps us from being murderous neanderthals, I do however believe that, having that in mind for some (subconsciously) helps reduces the numbers Greatly..

And i believe it starts from childhood. Our parents like moses, brings a bigger god then even themselves when it came to teaching us right from wrong on major crimes. On small petty ones, that are mom and pop made, we rebelled immediately when we could migrate if we chose too, and come to terms they are an equal entity as yourself, they lose their godlike power over you (keeping respect but not same adolescent/parent power). But not every one ends up rebelling with murder, and thefts, and inhuman things., I believe its because, in a subconscious state of mind, the fear of this LAW rather we care is written actually by god or man, is somehow still of a higher being than even our parents, and man all together.

the point is, the morals and social order people ascribe to religion is an illusion. people like to place their own morals on religious texts and claim they got it from there but that's not the case.
Of course it is, anyway to the none believer. But we as none believers have come to a rational conclusion of not needing the crutch of a god as guidance to make out decisions of life, morals, and good judgment, we have just decided we enjoy the good side of things and still practice good intentions. I'm afraid we can't say the same for every person that co-exist can manage to do the same.

i think it would be fair to say that the time when 'god ruled' the heaviest, the world was at it's darkest in regards to human rights. as people pull away from religion and start placing their own interpretations of religious texts out there (which is what we are seeing in america... more and more believers are maintaining faith while rejecting organized religion), we start to see more progressive movements in civil rights. the more oppressive nations are ruled under theocracies (in the case of north korea, it's a theocracy that worships a man). it seems like all progressive first world nations are moving toward secularism and the nations with the most issues are theocracies. how can it be that the idea of being ruled by god is equivalent to more moral nations?

See my prior statement about childhood, which is basically handed down practice of "imprinting", of the ideas of having a higher being, or should we say establishing the fear of imaginable being that goes way beyond and Man, thus something you can't escape.

conversely, nations with state sponsored atheism are just as bad. they are not the answer to theocracies but are instead another form of extremism. secularism allows people to 'play with their religious toys' while requiring them to keep those toys out of government. this allows for people to get their morals from where ever they see fit while still keeping government solely a human endeavor. America was founded on this idea... that (as Jefferson put it) there should be a wall of separation between religion and government. religion should have no say as to how government functions and government should have no say on religious matters. the UK banning the teaching of creationism in public schools is a step in that direction.

Thing of it is, and this coming from an atheist, pushing religion totally out of "public" school in a sense is also forcing the opposite belief. Christians are also a part of the state (and on topic, this state wouldn't exist without them) The state should take take this into consideration and separate the two, and the "public" christian still get the same benefits of a free public school system too..and not be forced to pay taxes, plus send their kids to private expensiveness schools, see the more in this? Christian families paying taxes for public schools of future atheist, and paying private schools to boot

that's the idea, anyway. i only use ancient peoples as an example of civilizations without Christianity and as a marker of social progression and it's relation to religious oppression.

Ancient people may not have had Christ, they however had gods that set the moral boundaries of their social standards. And basically the end of point for me, is for several thousand years, the current "god" has been the fundamental benchmark for who we are as a society today. I also think we are already on a downward spiral from the good we finally became from this Imaginary being. Morally we are becoming even more corrupt with every generation, kids are exposed to more at influential stages in their lives that most of us never imagined until we were already fully adults. Future kids past the newer generation, then the next could be fully numb to the idea of any higher being than man, so fears no "eternal" consequences on a subconscious level of thinking, thus having only armed government to control the mass of bred and born sociopaths, who will only have the desire to escape the oppression, and rebel against the new mortal daddy {Govt.}

[rob666]

Originally Posted by TheVrist ↗

Ancient people may not have had Christ, they however had gods that set the moral boundaries of their social standards. And basically the end of point for me, is for several thousand years, the current "god" has been the fundamental benchmark for who we are as a society today. I also think we are already on a downward spiral from the good we finally became from this Imaginary being. Morally we are becoming even more corrupt with every generation, kids are exposed to more at influential stages in their lives that most of us never imagined until we were already fully adults. Future kids past the newer generation, then the next could be fully numb to the idea of any higher being than man, so fears no "eternal" consequences on a subconscious level of thinking, thus having only armed government to control the mass of bred and born sociopaths, who will only have the desire to escape the oppression, and rebel against the new mortal daddy {Govt.}

Honestly dude I don't think that humanity has ever been good to each other or the planet, and what good there's been from Christianity has been countered by some really awful stuff committed for their beliefs. The biggest thing that has changed is we have mass media, we all have an encyclopedia at our fingertips, and we can see through the bullshit that is organized religion. This generation is no worse than any one previously, and i hope that it's smart enough to realize that religion has always been about control, mainly controlling women.

I don't think it's too much to ask a supreme being to come around a bit more often to clarify some issues for us, this once every 2 thousand years bullshit isn't working out. Every fucking day thousands of people die in his name, due to confusion over what he supposedly wants us to do.
Buddhists and natives beliefs make the most sense to me. Believe in what you can see, what you can prove. Even the Egyptians had the sense to worship the sun, it warmed them and grew their crops, Gave them life.

[TheVrist]

Originally Posted by rob666 ↗

Honestly dude I don't think that humanity has ever been good to each other or the planet, and what good there's been from Christianity has been countered by some really awful stuff committed for their beliefs. The biggest thing that has changed is we have mass media, we all have an encyclopedia at our fingertips, and we can see through the bullshit that is organized religion. This generation is no worse than any one previously, and i hope that it's smart enough to realize that religion has always been about control, mainly controlling women.

I don't think it's too much to ask a supreme being to come around a bit more often to clarify some issues for us, this once every 2 thousand years bullshit isn't working out. Every fucking day thousands of people die in his name, due to confusion over what he supposedly wants us to do.
Buddhists and natives beliefs make the most sense to me. Believe in what you can see, what you can prove. Even the Egyptians had the sense to worship the sun, it warmed them and grew their crops, Gave them life.

Yea I'm still not suggesting past christianity or even current Christianity is of full good, my points are centric around the gist of the common person being still within an over all law enforced moral standard with a higher beings backing.

Most of your common joes couldn't explain 99% of the bible, or even begin to understand the Christian faith, or its history, however was taught early on to live with good in the heart and have some sort of imaginable long term reward for it.

Take that out of the equation, common joes are raised to think they have 60-80yrs till the inevitable "nothing" comes, so better make the best of it while you can. What happens when the "best" for them never happens?

Well for some athiest, we accept it and move on, using life experiences, and rotational thinking. But there are people that will be incapable of that. Then of course there is the extremities, and various ways people will react about it.

As it is now, and was more so in the past, the mass amount of good were people that had some hidden hope deep in their minds that being of good nature brought somthing beyond the average lifespan, and they didnt need a constant reminder of it.

If we start forcing what is left out with law, and science, we could be facing a world full of people who will think its pointless to be good. And a world full of people with no hope filled hearts. We don't see it now as relevant, because most of us even atheist are still hardwired in the mind from our former generations. So of course we think it is safe to assume everyone could be like us.

It's simply in our nature to follow somthing bigger than the guy standing NEXT to us, sure we will to an extent, but the moment our free thinking mind dont agree with the guy, we will want him to step asside, if we're forced to accept this equal to us guy on the free thinking people ,what do you think will happen? Probably the same thing that happened to us eons ago before gods came into mandkinds existence, ecsape, migrate, create, etc.

Next time you're at wal-mart, observe the hundreds of personalities, and ask your self, what would these people be like if they had no hope past the average life span. I picked wal-mart, because as we all know, some of the most simple minded obviously are attracted the place.


To me, those type would be the problematic ones in society with no god in their lives, rather god is make believe or not. Go ask them about god, then ask them about their govt. Absolutely loves jebus and never goes to church, absolutely hates the govt. But tolerates it because somehow their imaginary higher being plays a big part in it.. yanno the whole "it's mah gawd given right to freedom of speech"
So its safe to say, no matter what, if the govt dont have some sort of.faith backing, the people of wal-mart would be a constant anti govt. Mob, .because most people simply don't view or wager power on an intellectual basis, to man, everyone is equal. And to man, if they can't beat you with intellectual power, then sticks and stones it is.


Then we have the people of wal-mart with no long term hope for rewards becoming less of a productive asset in society, if the world all were born, and raised with no hope in site other that the average life span, how many people would be productive anymore? The attitude would be "why should I be busting my ass working, I have maybe 20 years till my eternal darkness comes, fuck this!" He runs off on a rampage.. the work force that keeps the gears turning would be obsolete, because who would wanna spend 70% of their life span, before eternal darkness working?

So now in a world full of people that only want to make the best of their short few years, how they see fit, with no productive work force etc, whats left to do? Of course, put them under the gun, make them work at gun point, live breath and eat at gun point. Basically an extreme pointless existence. People would most likely be bred, and forced into slave labor.

Im sorry, but I don't foresee us as a whole, capable of existing without imaginary beings. And for athiest, govt. And scientists it is just stupid, and selfish to spend their entire short lifespan on earth to prove the rest of the world idiots for believing in make believe. Why should we as atheist care what happens when we find our end, and can never look back to see the disaster in the wake.

[niknik]

I'll suggest that christianity is full of good. And we're not paying for them either. They have tax exemptions. They don't get checks from the government. Which makes sense, since they often have programs that help less fortunate. Fact is if you banned organized religion, and took the exemption. America would have a humanitarian crisis. Who do you think is the largest provider of humanitarian aid in the world? Christian organizations. In my city alone the feed, clothe, house, and protect many homeless and less fortunate citizens. The past shouldn't matter. Today's Christians aren't causing wars or violence. They are not perfect, but they are not a parasite. I don't think people realize how much good they do.

[winvens]

Originally Posted by niknik ↗

I'll suggest that christianity is full of good. And we're not paying for them either. They have tax exemptions. They don't get checks from the government. Which makes sense, since they often have programs that help less fortunate. Fact is if you banned organized religion, and took the exemption. America would have a humanitarian crisis. Who do you think is the largest provider of humanitarian aid in the world? Christian organizations. In my city alone the feed, clothe, house, and protect many homeless and less fortunate citizens. The past shouldn't matter. Today's Christians aren't causing wars or violence. They are not perfect, but they are not a parasite. I don't think people realize how much good they do.

I agree there are many excellent Christian organizations doing good deeds for their fellow humans, but what about the others? Do you not recall Pat Robertson calling for Fidel Castro to be assassinated? That's violent and parasitic, at least to me. What about Robertson and groups like the Christian Broadcasting Network, EWTN, etcetera? All they do is spread misinformation, lies and hatred.

Why should these and other millionaire so-called "Christian" organizations be tax exempt? If anything, they should pay their share of taxes...the money would at least be used somewhat appropriately. Unlike The 700 Club and Focus on the Family do with their truckloads of cash.

[TheVrist]

Originally Posted by Anom Alley ↗

I agree there are many excellent Christian organizations doing good deeds for their fellow humans, but what about the others? Do you not recall Pat Robertson calling for Fidel Castro to be assassinated? That's violent and parasitic, at least to me. What about Robertson and groups like the Christian Broadcasting Network, EWTN, etcetera? All they do is spread misinformation, lies and hatred.

Why should these and other millionaire so-called "Christian" organizations be tax exempt? If anything, they should pay their share of taxes...the money would at least be used somewhat appropriately. Unlike The 700 Club and Focus on the Family do with their truckloads of cash.

When it comes to the almighty dollar, there will always be rich corruption within good causes. People use the bleeding hearts conscious to gain from. Its like rescue organization's for animals, its like feed the kids organisation all over the TV, its like fund raisers, and like people or organizations for homless people. That have nothing to do with christains, but have blatant corruption in it.

Instead of a minority of people in the world trying to figure out how to make a uniformed mentality among society, they should really figure out how to devalue the purpose of currency.

It would be easier to teach society to not have a need for the concept of money, than it would be to teach people to live without a belief system.

[the hawk]

much tl;dr

many paragraph

wow

[rob666]

Originally Posted by TheVrist ↗

Yea I'm still not suggesting past christianity or even current Christianity is of full good, my points are centric around the gist of the common person being still within an over all law enforced moral standard with a higher beings backing.

Most of your common joes couldn't explain 99% of the bible, or even begin to understand the Christian faith, or its history, however was taught early on to live with good in the heart and have some sort of imaginable long term reward for it.

Take that out of the equation, common joes are raised to think they have 60-80yrs till the inevitable "nothing" comes, so better make the best of it while you can. What happens when the "best" for them never happens?

Well for some athiest, we accept it and move on, using life experiences, and rotational thinking. But there are people that will be incapable of that. Then of course there is the extremities, and various ways people will react about it.

As it is now, and was more so in the past, the mass amount of good were people that had some hidden hope deep in their minds that being of good nature brought somthing beyond the average lifespan, and they didnt need a constant reminder of it.

If we start forcing what is left out with law, and science, we could be facing a world full of people who will think its pointless to be good. And a world full of people with no hope filled hearts. We don't see it now as relevant, because most of us even atheist are still hardwired in the mind from our former generations. So of course we think it is safe to assume everyone could be like us.

It's simply in our nature to follow somthing bigger than the guy standing NEXT to us, sure we will to an extent, but the moment our free thinking mind dont agree with the guy, we will want him to step asside, if we're forced to accept this equal to us guy on the free thinking people ,what do you think will happen? Probably the same thing that happened to us eons ago before gods came into mandkinds existence, ecsape, migrate, create, etc.

Next time you're at wal-mart, observe the hundreds of personalities, and ask your self, what would these people be like if they had no hope past the average life span. I picked wal-mart, because as we all know, some of the most simple minded obviously are attracted the place.


To me, those type would be the problematic ones in society with no god in their lives, rather god is make believe or not. Go ask them about god, then ask them about their govt. Absolutely loves jebus and never goes to church, absolutely hates the govt. But tolerates it because somehow their imaginary higher being plays a big part in it.. yanno the whole "it's mah gawd given right to freedom of speech"
So its safe to say, no matter what, if the govt dont have some sort of.faith backing, the people of wal-mart would be a constant anti govt. Mob, .because most people simply don't view or wager power on an intellectual basis, to man, everyone is equal. And to man, if they can't beat you with intellectual power, then sticks and stones it is.


Then we have the people of wal-mart with no long term hope for rewards becoming less of a productive asset in society, if the world all were born, and raised with no hope in site other that the average life span, how many people would be productive anymore? The attitude would be "why should I be busting my ass working, I have maybe 20 years till my eternal darkness comes, fuck this!" He runs off on a rampage.. the work force that keeps the gears turning would be obsolete, because who would wanna spend 70% of their life span, before eternal darkness working?

So now in a world full of people that only want to make the best of their short few years, how they see fit, with no productive work force etc, whats left to do? Of course, put them under the gun, make them work at gun point, live breath and eat at gun point. Basically an extreme pointless existence. People would most likely be bred, and forced into slave labor.

Im sorry, but I don't foresee us as a whole, capable of existing without imaginary beings. And for athiest, govt. And scientists it is just stupid, and selfish to spend their entire short lifespan on earth to prove the rest of the world idiots for believing in make believe. Why should we as atheist care what happens when we find our end, and can never look back to see the disaster in the wake.

I'm completely open to the idea of something after this. I'd like to think that maybe when we die we get to see why we're all here, what the purpose is, a great big aha moment...... That would be nice. The whole big scheme of things, why things are the way they are.

The older I get the more I realize how everything on this planet relies on everything else, it's all a series of interconnecting cycles...... The death of something nurtures the life of something else. Everything on this planet, including this planet, is connected. It's one hell of a system.

I'm just not sure that a book that has passed through the hands of so many men can be accurate. People are self centred assholes, and the fear of going to a pit of fire for eternity is a powerful motivator. I'm certain that people 2k years ago were just as corrupt as today.

I respect your views and your opinions.

[chefbob09]

Long overdue. Fuck religion