[Qberth]

Coke might have had something to do with it and all that fast food that made him fat. That doesn't take away the fact that the cops killed him. If you push some granny to the ground and she dies because she's old and weak, you're still a murderer. They handcuffed a fat guy's hands behind his back, put him face down on the ground, apparently sat on him and threw some plastic planket on him to make it even harder for him to get a good breath.

[Tyrantus]

Ill start off by saying thanks for taking the time to share and giving us an opportunity to look at this from the law enforcement point of view.

Even though the tone of your response was perhaps a little snarky and sarcastic... (I honestly don't mind because those are probably my own best traits), I'm going to proceed as if it wasn't, and try to respond to your points in a concise matter.
Edit: After finishing writing this and looking at the wall of text, I'm pretty sure I failed to do that, but hopefully this is at least coherent.

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I think we're both aware that this issue is complicated...really complicated, and we're not going to be writing any policy here today, but I do believe that creating an open dialogue is important if the goal is to make interactions with police safer for civilians and law enforcement. You asked for my perspective, so here it is.

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Originally Posted by CohorsPraetoria ↗

I would love to know your relevant personal/professional background and what you could bring to the table in a situation like this, because I, as an active duty law enforcement officer, could learn a thing or two about this.

I'll get this one out of the way first. I'm currently pre-med, attending uni in the US. My major is in psychology, with a minor in forensic psychology (which shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone familiar with my posts).

Before I started Uni, I went to a medical vocational college where I earned certifications in medical billing, health claims examining, and coding. I was trained to use the DSM-5 (a tool used by medical professionals in the US to help diagnose and treat psychiatric issues, and also sets price guidelines that the medical billing departments should use if they want to be paid by insurance companies. I was also trained with the ICD-10, which is similar to the DSM-5 but not subject to psychiatric issues. it basically covers everything else health related. It was created and maintained by the World Health Organization, so its guidelines are used globally. Part of my job included data entry where I needed to make sure the coding on hospital charts was put into our computer system correctly. Those charts have your medical history, why they came to visit, symptoms, what was dx'd if anything, and any prescribed treatment. Over time I could see how doctors would treat certain things, how they came to those conclusions, etc. Although there wasnt really a lot of variation...the same stuff gets prescribed over and over but I still found in interesting.

And I just want to be clear here, I'm not claiming to be a doctor, or a licensed professional that can diagnose or treat anyone. I just have more experience in the field than the typical lay person.

A license professional did weigh in on the matter though:

An autopsy report by the Pima Country medical examiner’s office found that Ingram-Lopez died of sudden cardiac arrest, with physical restraint by officers and cocaine intoxication as contributing factors.

I would love to know your perspective as to how a coked up individual should be properly detained. I don't see or hear this guy get beat up, nor suffocated.

I don't have any real issue with how the cops handled the beginning of the interaction. As far as I know the cops were only aware that this guy was either having a mental breakdown and was acting erratically possibly due to being drunk.

When they arrived on scene, they decided to go hard and fast right away in order to detain him...did they need to?

I don't know. Based on what I think they knew, I don't think it was totally unreasonable for them to choose that tactic. But that's with the understanding that the priority after detainment should be everyone's health and safety.

I don't know what the protocol is for that district when they encounter a situation like this.

The police chief knew though:

At the news conference on Wednesday, Chief Magnus said that the officers involved had not met the training standards for dealing with a person experiencing a mental-health crisis involving “excited delirium.”

So without knowing what the actual procedure is, I can only speculate as to where they strayed from the path.

I think the key moment came after the man was detained with what sounded like several pairs of hand cuffs. His breathing started to slow down some, he was calming down, the cops were calming down, everyone was being quiet.. but the man started asking for water many times and slowly became more and more agitated when they weren't helping him, and even was being dismissive and antagonistic, then he starts to panic again...I believe this is the moment that they should've de-escalated further, but for whatever reason, they decided to go the other way.

At the end of this post I will do a brief summery of how I believe this encounter should have gone down. And you can let me know if you think its reasonable.

Once he was safely detained, and everyone calmed down, the police should've remembered why they were called out there to begin with...Either this man was on drugs, and needed help, or this man was having a mental breakdown and needed help. Both those situations required the police to have the wherewithal to protect and serve.

How do you guys handle situations like this in your neck of the woods?


What shouldve happened:
- Grandmother calls 911 asking for assistance for her grandson that is acting erratic.
- Dispatcher asks if she thinks its drug/mental health related
- Grandmother says it could be either or possibly both
- Dispatcher relays the information, says it could be both
- Police arrive, make a judgement call and do the same thing we see them do here
- Guy freaks out while getting placed in cuffs
- He starts calming down, cops calm down
- Cops take a moment to to assess wtf is actually going on here, is he a nutcase or is he high?
- Cop initiates conversation in a calm voice starts with questions like, "hey man just relax, whats going on tonight man?" maybe in a joking way say something like "Where are you clothes dude!?" "ur grandmother asked us to come and make sure you're okay"
- Guy asks for water
- A cop goes and gets the dude some damn water
- "are you gunna be cool if we sit you upright so we can give you some water? or maybe have her bring you some?" (you dont have to have granny go anywhere near him, but if she's visible, he might calm down further
- Guy freaks out about a non existent snake
- Cop attempts shows him there's no snake but understands it might be better to just distract him by asking more questions at this point until EMS arrives.
- They arrive, and take the dude to the hospital...figure out if the guy is going to be charged with anything.
everyone goes home, except for the dude on account of being taken to the hospital, but he's not dead.

Over here in Belgium they already have a name for this: Excited Delirium Syndrome. Which may or may not have been caused by narcotics abuse.
But, in true Belgian fashion, no guidelines or training has been developed so we are left to improvise.
Which has led to quite a few deaths over here as well...

This has taken way more time than I was expecting so Im just going to tackle EXD real quick.

As of writing this now, Excited delirium has a lot of drama surrounding it's use as a standalone diagnosis, and is not officially recognized by the WHO (world health organization), the APA (american psychiatric association, or the AMA (american medical association. It cannot be officially diagnosed by any licensed medical professional here in the US because its not in the DSM-5. The reason for that is political and I dont have the energy to tackle that now lol. But you may already be aware of whats going on with that.

[Purgificator]

Tyrantus, you're so compassionate and a good person. I wish you well and completely agree with you. Working with people is a tough job, and these cops are just rude cunts half-assing it, no better than a shitty clerk at a grocery store.

[CohorsPraetoria]

Wow, I honestly did not expect a half-decent response, so thanks!

My tone was indeed a bit snarky and sarcastic, but that had more to do with all the other police bashing replies than yours specifically.
In Flanders we have a saying "de beste stuurlui staan aan wal". I don't know the English equivalent for it, but it literally means "The best helmsmen are ashore".

It's a phenomenon we as LEO deal with every day and it's pretty fucking frustrating.

While you are obviously a LOT better informed than most people, I highly doubt that you fight people with a drug-induced superhuman pain tolerance on a regular basis.

This would be the most logical explanation as to why the cops in the video go in hard and fast from the get go. One thing you NEVER know when watching a video like this is whether or not the subject is known by the police for acting violently. Because if they are, then this will undoubtedly play into their decision on tactics.
The guy could be someone they know quite well for having a habit of resisting and fighting police.
Are you going to try to negotiate then? Especially if he/she is drugged up?

You mention EDS is not even recognised by governing bodies in the medical world. Then how the fuck is law enforcement supposed to have an SOP regarding dealing with EDS cases?

I also have questions about the autopsy report conclusion. Physical restraint alone will NOT kill you. I even doubt it would be a contributing factor in itself and would go as far as to suggest that the agitation and resistance against the restraint could be a contributing factor. Which is a HUGE difference for everyone involved.
So anyone dismissing the cops here as killers are pretty short sighted. What are they supposed to do? Someone who is handcuffed (2 pairs shackled together mind you, in order to make it easier for him to breathe) can still very well be dangerous if you don't take his mobility away.

The police find themselves very often in a catch-22. Take the threat away by force and be tried and executed for doing their job in keeping granny safe. Or do nothing to avoid being tried and executed and then be tried and executing for doing nothing.

In the end all we want is to go home to our families come end shift, and preferably without killing someone - even if the general public thinks otherwise.

The problem today is you have a lot of self proclaimed 'police experts' on social media who's only credit is their huge audience, going on about how police should handle this or that 'differently' but offering no true solutions as to how exactly.
God forbid they have ANY hands-on experience on the matter.

Real world violence never looks cool or flashy. It's ugly and most snowflakes are not ready to see what it really looks like.

Police work is not an exact science. Things can go wrong and will go wrong. It has always been like that and it always will be, that's the nature of dealing with people.
But when a society starts to call the very people they are asking to protect it murderers, who are they going to have left?
On this side of the pond it is just as difficult to find decent people who actually want this shit job to begin with as in the US. And then then send you out in a patrol car after 1 year of meager 'training' and you are left to fend for yourself.
So you adapt and try the best you can, but if something goes wrong they will hang you out to dry without thinking twice.

No wonder agencies are not able to attract the right profiles, because anyone in their right mind would steer away fast...

Which probably makes me an idiot for staying for nearly ten years up till now :D

[Shadolife]

Kill all the losers, let God sort out the innocent

[Tyrantus]

For me the era of the bodycam/dashcam has been pretty eye opening in seeing how unpredictable and chaotic things your line of work can get in an instant.

You mention EDS is not even recognised by governing bodies in the medical world. Then how the fuck is law enforcement supposed to have an SOP regarding dealing with EDS cases?

Basically the short version is that while the diagnosis itself isn't recognized by the organizations I've listed before, there are some that do recognize it as such.

The symptoms that present can be treated though, usually with a sedative like ketamine, and cooling the person down if they have an elevated temp.

I also have questions about the autopsy report conclusion. Physical restraint alone will NOT kill you. I even doubt it would be a contributing factor in itself and would go as far as to suggest that the agitation and resistance against the restraint could be a contributing factor. Which is a HUGE difference for everyone involved.

An autopsy report by the Pima Country medical examiner’s office found that Ingram-Lopez died of sudden cardiac arrest, with physical restraint by officers and cocaine intoxication as contributing factors.

Without having to write a paper on this, I'll post a couple pictures that I've borrowed from a medical school's website that should help. Ill post the link to it, since they actually did write a paper on it if anyone is interested.

This one lists factors that can cause ED to happen. You don't need all of these factors, just some.
Amphetamine/Cocaine is an easy checkmark
I believe that he might fit the criteria for Acute Psychosis and Mania as well.
The dude graduated from cooking school, which suggests he's doesn't act like that all the time.

This one is self explanatory


The video to me looks like they were all working together as a team, like they were following protocol and everything was routine, until the Sarge realized (a little too late) the guy was unresponsive.

But I don't see a problem in this video that cant be easily fixed with a refresher course on how to deal with people in situations like this.

https://www.emra.org/emresident/arti...ited-delirium/

[Tyrantus]

Originally Posted by Purgificator ↗

Tyrantus, you're so compassionate and a good person. I wish you well and completely agree with you. Working with people is a tough job, and these cops are just rude cunts half-assing it, no better than a shitty clerk at a grocery store.

Thanks for your kind words. :)

[stranglewank]

It’s staggering to me how many of you guys on this site watch videos of countries that have no law and order, and then proceed to talk about wanting to get rid of law and order. The reality that this site documents is that everywhere outside of Western/Central Europe, Australia, New Zealand, US/Canada is a lawless, free-for-all shithole where your life is worth less than $20.

If you hate cops so much, take a one-way trip to Juarez Mexico, Somalia, or Syria, they all self-govern without any cops ‘abusing them’, so why not live among fellow authority-haters?

If anything, money should be spent to better train cops, and cops should have to undergo more thorough psych testing before being permitted to work as an officer. No more failed military, or failed athletes bringing their testosterone and aggression to the police force. It’s these roided-up retards that squeeze off 17 rounds in a residential area at a fleeing vehicle, only to hit a fellow officers, kids, and/or people watching tv inside their homes.

To talk about defunding them is literal retard logic. You might as well just come out and say “I can only see a problem at face value, even though it’s a complex issue”. You have to do your own digging for facts because google/YouTube/Facebook/Twitter all have extremist left biases and will promote shit that lies with statistics and/or skew the facts. Heyjackass.com is a great site that has a plethora of Chicago crime statistics that the left desperately tries to hide. Such as if BLM mattered so much, why isn’t there so much as a fucking peep about Chicago having somebody shot every 2 hours, and murdered every 11? That so far in 2020, 3842 people have been shot.

Oh, and if you had shitty encounters with them, try not acting like a condescending, “I know the law....DO YOU?” douchebag, or maybe don’t speed when there’s cops around, only to get offended when you’re pulled over. Even if you do behave you’ll still meet douchebag cops, but at that point, you’re crossing into the territory of how there’s cunts everywhere. I’m a cunt, some of you are cunts, so naturally, there’s going to be cunty cops.

If you genuinely believe that we need to get rid of cops, then you have the brain of a herbivore.

[Killroy]

Originally Posted by 18Zulu ↗

The police didn’t cause this man’s death. They are cops and few cops are paramedics therefore no reasonable person would believe they would know what cardiac arrest sounds like. This drug abuser was not complaining of chest pain or saying something was wrong medically while he was very clearly in cardiac failure. Good video but your info sucks.

pig fucker

[sickworld]

this was very hard to listen too ....
so obvious the man was in distress and and should not have been sat on