[Dream_Trawler]

that was a very casual "i fear for my life" shooting event

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Originally Posted by Vedderman ↗

ICE cannot. Period. Ever. Fullstop. Literally above their paygrade to try to police US citizens aside from at the border. They have ZERO legal right to detain US citizens and even less legal right to shoot them when they attempt the flee illegal detainment.

False. Many moons ago I worked with DEA, FBI and ICE several times during my duties for my state. I can assure you ICE has the authority to arrest US citizens, especially when they impede with immigration investigations, this is nothing new and ICE agents can arrest anyone (including U.S. citizens) for federal criminal offenses in limited situations, as authorized by 8 U.S.C. § 1357(a)(5):
For any federal offense committed in the officer's presence.
For any federal felony if the officer has reasonable grounds to believe the person committed it, and there's a likelihood the person would escape before a warrant could be obtained.

ICE are federal agents and as such are given certain powers and arrest privileges, this is not completely limited within the scope of non-citizens or "at the border" like you mentioned. I'm not sure how you obtained that incredibly wrong sentiment that they can never arrest a US citizen. That is just flat out wrong. I find it abhorrent this woman lost her life, but at least get some basic facts right regarding the scope and powers that ICE do indeed have and have had for many years.

[DegoLocc]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

False. Many moons ago I worked with DEA, FBI and ICE several times during my duties for my state. I can assure you ICE has the authority to arrest US citizens, especially when they impede with immigration investigations, this is nothing new and ICE agents can arrest anyone (including U.S. citizens) for federal criminal offenses in limited situations, as authorized by 8 U.S.C. § 1357(a)(5):
For any federal offense committed in the officer's presence.
For any federal felony if the officer has reasonable grounds to believe the person committed it, and there's a likelihood the person would escape before a warrant could be obtained.

ICE are federal agents and as such are given certain powers and arrest privileges, this is not completely limited within the scope of non-citizens or "at the border" like you mentioned. I'm not sure how you obtained that incredibly wrong sentiment that they can never arrest a US citizen. That is just flat out wrong. I find it abhorrent this woman lost her life, but at least get some basic facts right regarding the scope and powers that ICE do indeed have and have had for many years.

I think there is a good chance that the general sentiment that ICE isn't valid or legally able to do anything among leftists is part of what led to this happening.

I wish ppl would stop spreading shit online they know nothing about, because it leads to shit like this happening.

Like them or not ICE is a federal government agency and if you try to follow them around harassing and impending them you're probably going to get arrested despite whatever someone's social media feed tells them.

I still don't think they needed to shoot her. But it's looking like they had a legal right to stop and detain her if she was obstructing them.

What kind of society would we have if ppl could just tell law enforcement "No" and drive away?

That's not how it works, and if you want that then you want anarchy.

[wolfie]

My first view of the video. She indeed was trying to flee and created a dangerous environment. Ice has authority to affect arrests of anyone within their jurisdiction which is vast. The have arrest authority on felonies anywhere. With that said I do not understand why they shot. She certainly did not create a crime that justified the shooting. I do notice there is more of a propensity to shoot than physically try to detain by all LEO's. The officer in front of the vehicle was in a stupid place. People taking off in a vehicle is a common thing. You prepare for that to happen and do not place yourself in easily run over places. Shooting IMO would have been at the bottom of the list of priorities to try to stop her.

This relationship between civilians and law enforcement needs to improve. I have seen this before and it will only happen if LEO softens it's tactics and the people control the radicals that will want this to continue. It is up to LEO to set a standard of trust. Wearing masks across your face is not a way to encourage your purpose. I would for one take the mask off. And it needs to be an arrest with booking not a grab and throw them into a van.

Let me say this. Violence against the police is something I would avoid. They will not allow that and you will not win. Protest, write your governor but violence is not the answer. They are well trained in protecting themselves.

[Vedderman]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

False. Many moons ago I worked with DEA, FBI and ICE several times during my duties for my state. I can assure you ICE has the authority to arrest US citizens, especially when they impede with immigration investigations, this is nothing new and ICE agents can arrest anyone (including U.S. citizens) for federal criminal offenses in limited situations, as authorized by 8 U.S.C. § 1357(a)(5):
For any federal offense committed in the officer's presence.
For any federal felony if the officer has reasonable grounds to believe the person committed it, and there's a likelihood the person would escape before a warrant could be obtained.

ICE are federal agents and as such are given certain powers and arrest privileges, this is not completely limited within the scope of non-citizens or "at the border" like you mentioned. I'm not sure how you obtained that incredibly wrong sentiment that they can never arrest a US citizen. That is just flat out wrong. I find it abhorrent this woman lost her life, but at least get some basic facts right regarding the scope and powers that ICE do indeed have and have had for many years.

I mean they state right the fuck on ICE.gov what their scope of authority is. They discuss what their powers of arrest and detainment are.

I directly cut and pasted it earlier in the thread. If you're telling me that the government webpage for ICE is willfully misrepresenting its scope of authority in terms of arrests, then it isn't like I'd be surprised to hear that. But it's pretty cut and dried.

I dunno what the fuck or who the fuck you were doing it with 'many moons ago.' But in 2026, the Trump2-era webpage for ICE states their mandate pretty clearly.

Then again, the website also states:
"ICE officers and agents prioritize safety — including the safety of the people they arrest — and are highly trained in de-escalation." so you're probably at least partially correct and it is deliberate misrepresenting.


Of course they have the same limited scope as any LE to stop shit like felonies being committed right in front of them. They aren't expected to stand there like morons if someone is shooting at them. I assumed that was stipulated, but I understand that my verbiage can incline towards hyperbole so maybe it wasn't.

But they do NOT have the legal authority to order a US citizen who is unarmed and non-violent to exit her vehicle without cause just because she is blocking one lane of traffic. In the documented instances where they HAVE detained US citizens for such things, the charges have been dropped in the vast majority of cases. Because they aren't fucking supposed to do it.

Go find me one case where an ICE arrest of a US citizen actually led to conviction unless the citizen was directly aiding or harboring an illegal who was the targeted subject of an ICE raid. I spent a good hour looking and turned up nothing of substance.

My arguments about their broader powers all aside, NOTHING they did in this case was within their legal scope. You l know that and I know that.
Ordering a US citizen to exit her vehicle at gunpoint because she's blocking part of a traffic lane on a residential street?

[Tony76]

Comments on this are much better than the Kirk thread

[Faust]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

I'm not sure how you obtained that incredibly wrong sentiment that they can never arrest a US citizen.

Probably on bluesky.

But seriously, I think Vedderman means that if an ICE officer sees a (Caucasian) US citizen committing a crime, for example: steal a bike, then the ICE officer has no authority to detain or arrest the US citizen bike thief.

Same way that an ICE officer cannot tell a US citizen to move their vehicle if they parked their car wrong.

He could be right about the above examples.

The main issue IMO is that people keep telling themselves that you don’t need to ever listen to an ICE officer, under no circumstance should a US citizen ever be required to obey any order issued by an ICE officer.
The reality however is that this can literally get US citizens killed.

[WhiskeyOutpost]

They made a lawful order for her to stop because she was impeding their immigration investigation. ICE 100% has that scope of authority, I'm not sure why some people are being so factually incorrect and emotional in here. Did she deserve to die? No. Did she ultimately forfeit her life for stepping on the gas while a federal agent was right in front of her vehicle? Yes. This is a shitty situation

[Vedderman]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

They made a lawful order for her to stop because she was impeding their immigration investigation. ICE 100% has that scope of authority, I'm not sure why some people are being so factually incorrect and emotional in here. Did she deserve to die? No. Did she ultimately forfeit her life for stepping on the gas while a federal agent was right in front of her vehicle? Yes. This is a shitty situation

He shot her four fucking times at point blank range while she was clearly banking a hard right turn in order to drive AROUND him and affect a retreat from the situation.

Jesus H Christ, why are you being so disingenuous? I know you are both intelligent and experienced. I also don't actually even think you're anywhere near as much of a hardline fascist wanna be as some of the authoritarian simps on this page project.

You know what happens when you 'step on the gas' and deliberately try to ram someone who is right in front of you? YOU FUCKING RUN THEM OVER.

Taking four bullets to the face and chest has no goddam affect on momentum at that distance.

He was not in 'right front of her.' He was at 11:00 and her tires were at 12:00 with her visibly turning her tires to 2:00 as she maneuvered to make sure he was fully clear when she accelerated. She did not hit him. He was not injured. He is clearly seen storming up and down the street, uninjured, harassing protestors in the wake of the murder.

Is he Chuck Norris that he could agilely dodge a car 'stepping on the gas' and aiming at him from three feet away while simultaneously aiming and shooting a woman four times all in the space of 2 seconds?

Or is he actually just a poorly trained thug with no discipline and a murderous disposition whose idea of 'de-escalating' a traffic obstruction was yelling "Shithead! Get out of the fucking car!" and waving his gun as his colleague attempted a forced entry into an unarmed US citizen's private vehicle?

You're the interdepartmental liaison or whatever the fuck for thirty years, not me. I'd love to hear your professional assessment from the videos. The five in this thread and/or the other dozen easily found elsewhere.

You earnestly think this was a clean shooting in self-defense? With her tires clearly shown in dozens of frames as being turned firmly to the right in order to move around him? Despite him shooting her FOUR times in 'self defense' as she tried to drive past him to the open street? As he and his cronies physically obstructed a trained medical professional from providing first response aid while she was bleeding out in the car?

She forfeited her life? By trying to flee masked men attempting to break into her car? I know you capitulated that she didn't 'deserve to die' but you still insist on tacitly stating that she 'forfeited' her life by staging a peaceful, non-violent, unarmed protest and then trying to flee when she realized that the masked thugs converging on her car actually intended to harm her?

Reinvigorate a little bit of my fractured faith in humanity for me, eh? Tell me you at LEAST hope this guy gets jail time for shooting an unarmed woman four times as she was fleeing a possible traffic obstruction charge stemming from partially blocking a lane of traffic on a residential street.

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Originally Posted by Vedderman ↗

I mean they state right the fuck on ICE.gov what their scope of authority is. They discuss what their powers of arrest and detainment are.

I guess ICE speaking about their general mandate and powers on their website is all-encompassing and supercedes the US code which gives them broader scope and powers as US federal agents
I'm perplexed I have to explain this to you.

Originally Posted by Vedderman ↗

I dunno what the fuck or who the fuck you were doing it with 'many moons ago.' But in 2026, the Trump2-era webpage for ICE states their mandate pretty clearly.

When you talk like that, you expose yourself as an emotionally reactive person who has more interest in attacking people who disagree rather than having a factual discussion to come to a logical and reasonable conclusion. Not a good look for an admin.

Originally Posted by Vedderman ↗

Then again, the website states:
"ICE officers and agents prioritize safety — including the safety of the people they arrest — and are highly trained in de-escalation." so you're probably at least partially correct and it is deliberate misrepresenting.

Again, this emphasis on public-facing words on a government website - if you're using that to gauge anything at all, you're going to have a hard time.

Originally Posted by Vedderman ↗

Of course they have the same limited scope as any LE to stop shit like felonies being committed right in front of them. They aren't expected to stand there like morons if someone is shooting at them.

That's not what you said before. At all. You are changing your argument now.

Originally Posted by Vedderman ↗

But they do NOT have the legal authority to order a US citizen who is unarmed and non-violent to exit her vehicle without cause just because she is blocking one lane of traffic.

Again, the emotionally charged language - "unarmed" and "non-violent" means nothing. I'm not sure about the factuality but apparently she was doing a whole lot more than just that before she got in the car and got shot. Not sure about that piece though. Either way it would be a lawful order which she ignored which is a crime in itself.

Originally Posted by Vedderman ↗

In the documented instances where they HAVE detained US citizens for such things, the charges have been dropped in the vast majority of cases. Because they aren't fucking supposed to do it.

False. The rate of successful prosecution has absolutely nothing to do with whether a person should be arrested for an offense or not, now we're just being ridiculous. And if a judge decides to throw a charge out, that can be for a variety of reasons, not because of Vedderman's expert opinion of "because they aren't fucking supposed to do it."

Originally Posted by Vedderman ↗

My arguments about their broader powers all aside, NOTHING they did in this case was within their legal scope. You l know that and I know that.

False. Someone impeding with their assigned investigation is firmly within their legal scope if they interfere with it. I really don't understand why you have such a big opinion on something that you clearly know nothing about. It's weird.

Originally Posted by Vedderman ↗

Ordering a US citizen to exit her vehicle at gunpoint because she's blocking part of a traffic lane on a residential street?

None of them had their guns drawn until she decided to step on the gas while an officer was directly in front of her. That's obvious.