[spyderguard]

Originally Posted by Johnny Wadd ↗

When Home Depot apparently started supplying to these officers on the right, that's when.

[JakeHarper]

Originally Posted by xseanx13 ↗

Pepper spray, tasers, batons, pepper paintballs, firehose, police dog......see what im getting at here. Its true you shouldnt draw a weapon, especially something so pussy, on cops, but the cops seem to forget about their taser and spray if theyre not dealing with a pregnant woman or 13 year old.

why should we care about some lowlife running around with a weapon? Why, please?

[nextgas100miles]

Cop pulls gun you have a 50/50 chance of getting shot, weapon in hand or not. Seen to many video's to prove otherwise. But don't be dumb and hope the cops won't shoot you if you have a weapon. All the cops shooting is pretty fucked up and overkill. I'd be ashamed if I was one of those idiots. One well placed shot would have done the job. :face palm

[30564U]

Originally Posted by cortdb ↗

thank you for your reply! I have taken your advice and searched on youtube for the "21 foot rule" as it is called and i am BLOWN AWAY! I see now why these cops fired as they were trained to do BUT i see one distinct difference, these cops that shot this suspect already had their firearms unholstered and aimed at him. So the 21Ft rule would not apply. How do you feel about that? I have looked and cant find an unholstered 21ft rule video. I feel with the weapon trained on the suspect, they had a distinct advantage and could pull the trigger in milliseconds. When you were almost cut up, did you have your weapon holstered or aimed at the perpetrator? BTW i dont have a hatred toward police in general, and i appreciate them putting life and limb in jeopardy every time they clock in, but i have been on the receiving end of small town politics and police work. Dont take my comments wrong please, and i appreciate your service, just like an armed services member sir.

I appreciate your questions and now that the lunatic fringe anti-police crowd has shot their wad, I'll try to give you an answer.

First off, there really isn't a hard twenty-one foot rule, it's just a smart officer survival distance to be aware of when you find yourself in that situation. I don't think any police officer would look at that distance and say he's now ok to shoot the guy. It's not like you can shoot him if the bad guy closes to a shorter distance or you can't shoot the bad guy if he's further away than twenty-one feet. It all depends on the officers judgement and training...it also depends on backdrop, potential for collateral damage, clear target, etc. That's what makes these incidents so difficult to investigate...there are so many variables. Some of these folks on DR become automatic experts based on what they think they're seeing while missing what's actually relevant...but it's the same everywhere. I get the same bullshit with defense or prosecution attorneys...everone's an expert because they've seen it on TV or in the movies. It never ends. That the officers had their handguns drawn isn't that relevant to the overall investigation. Take a look at how many rounds they fired and how many actually hit the guy. I wish I knew how many rounds actually hit Mr. Hall in vital areas...but I don't. In other words...the officers had their hand's full and could barely stop Mr. Hall as it was with their firearms drawn...I shudder to think what might have happened if they had drawn from a holster when Mr. Hall made his lunge...he might have actually gotten a cut on one of those officers. Pathetic shooting skills, but not uncommon in situations like this. You'd be suppressed by how badly most officers shoot in a real live shooting incident.

Now, as for my own shooting at a knife wielding suspect. It was twenty years ago, I was alone, it was a dark alley, it was late evening, and I didn't see the guy in the shadows. He was right around 18 feet from me when I saw him and the glint of the knife blade (huge butcher knife) and he began walking toward me. I drew my handgun about the time he was maybe 10 feet away and he was picking up speed toward me. He lifted his arm with knife and I side stepped his knife thrust and fired three very fast rounds into his left side (all connected and were solid hits. The bad guy turned and came at me again...I fired four more very fast rounds hitting him center mass and trailing down low in the abdomen. The bad guy stopped, dropped the knife, bent over, dropped, and died right there within three feet of where I stood. Turns out he'd fatally stabbed another guy in that alley that was only found when my backup and shooting team arrived. I was very lucky that night. But I trained long and hard for just such an incident, I have extremely fast reflexes (even today,), I shoot very well in a stress/combat situation, and I have a naturally gifted ability to shoot very well.

[Feirefiz]

Fuck these incompetent cops! They are no policemen but just idiots wielding guns.

[xandrespop]

They could have Bean bagged him, Taser, net....or just backed off a bit. They had a clear parking lot so they had options. Most of them [cops] look really fat and out of shape...so I guess they did not want to chase him. The bad guy on the other hand should not have brought a knife to gun fight. As for shoot to wound....Not trained for that-Center mass Fire until they fall

[cortdb]

Originally Posted by 30564U ↗

I appreciate your questions and now that the lunatic fringe anti-police crowd has shot their wad, I'll try to give you an answer.

First off, there really isn't a hard twenty-one foot rule, it's just a smart officer survival distance to be aware of when you find yourself in that situation. I don't think any police officer would look at that distance and say he's now ok to shoot the guy. It's not like you can shoot him if the bad guy closes to a shorter distance or you can't shoot the bad guy if he's further away than twenty-one feet. It all depends on the officers judgement and training...it also depends on backdrop, potential for collateral damage, clear target, etc. That's what makes these incidents so difficult to investigate...there are so many variables. Some of these folks on DR become automatic experts based on what they think they're seeing while missing what's actually relevant...but it's the same everywhere. I get the same bullshit with defense or prosecution attorneys...everone's an expert because they've seen it on TV or in the movies. It never ends. That the officers had their handguns drawn isn't that relevant to the overall investigation. Take a look at how many rounds they fired and how many actually hit the guy. I wish I knew how many rounds actually hit Mr. Hall in vital areas...but I don't. In other words...the officers had their hand's full and could barely stop Mr. Hall as it was with their firearms drawn...I shudder to think what might have happened if they had drawn from a holster when Mr. Hall made his lunge...he might have actually gotten a cut on one of those officers. Pathetic shooting skills, but not uncommon in situations like this. You'd be suppressed by how badly most officers shoot in a real live shooting incident.

Now, as for my own shooting at a knife wielding suspect. It was twenty years ago, I was alone, it was a dark alley, it was late evening, and I didn't see the guy in the shadows. He was right around 18 feet from me when I saw him and the glint of the knife blade (huge butcher knife) and he began walking toward me. I drew my handgun about the time he was maybe 10 feet away and he was picking up speed toward me. He lifted his arm with knife and I side stepped his knife thrust and fired three very fast rounds into his left side (all connected and were solid hits. The bad guy turned and came at me again...I fired four more very fast rounds hitting him center mass and trailing down low in the abdomen. The bad guy stopped, dropped the knife, bent over, dropped, and died right there within three feet of where I stood. Turns out he'd fatally stabbed another guy in that alley that was only found when my backup and shooting team arrived. I was very lucky that night. But I trained long and hard for just such an incident, I have extremely fast reflexes (even today,), I shoot very well in a stress/combat situation, and I have a naturally gifted ability to shoot very well.

Man! your one lucky guy! no shit. Talk about wrong place at the wrong time.

Like you, i would consider myself to have higher than average reflexes, i guess thats why im skeptical at the justifications of some of these shootings. But I agree, the difference in practice fire and real life adrenaline pumping shots are a whole different realm. I guess thats why most elite units, military and even some swat teams train in these "Kill houses" but they still dont 100% memic real life because you expect to encounter a situation at some point. So no matter if they fired 150 rounds or 15 between them, all that really matters is how well placed they were and if they stopped the suspect.
That brings up another comment, or question. I have noticed more often then not on these police involved shootings that they continue to fire multiple shots after the suspect is down. To the point another officer yells cease fire or they empty the magazine, and i have sometimes seen them do a tactical reload and fire more, with the guy on the ground. Is this standard operating procedure, adrenaline, or just a judgement call? I have never had to shoot a man but ive always heard the term "double tap center of mass" and/or shoot to neutralize the threat. So whats the deal with shooting more after they are already down and most likely dead or dying? Thanks again for your replies!!

[30564U]

I think it's a lot of adrenaline and muscle memory...you fight like you train. Sometimes the bad guy's still moving or the officer thinks he still moving a posses a threat...it's usually a judgement call as far as how many times you shoot someone. Contrary to popular belief, most officers are not firearms enthusiasts and are not very good shooters. Most officers who are good shooters and enjoy shooting usually move into SWAT or special units where those skills and their knowledge is appreciated and desired. Many times (usually), officers will loose track of how many times they fired their gun and continue to fire until they're empty...then they reload. I always tried to count my rounds...which in a real shooting is nearly impossible...but I always tried and that kept my mind occupied sort of and not thinking/worrying about any return fire. By trying to focus on shot placement and round count and by shooting and practicing a lot...I never got nervous or scared during the shooting. Afterword I would spaze out a little, but during the shoot I was stone cold business. I still have occasional nightmares and reactions to certain noises, colors, or more often smells. I guess it's just part of what happens...my wife and family say I've got a little PTSD, but I don't think what I've been through even compares with what our veterans have been through. I'd be embarrassed to admit I had PTSD...there are so many who have it so much worse.

In answer to your question about double taps...it used to be called "the Mozambique drill". That would be two to the chest, one to the head or the "fail safe drill". We train to automatically fire that way in case the bad guy is wearing body armor or if you miss the vitals you shut off the switch by the head shot. Now they're beginning to train two to the chest and two to the head.

I don't think the officers realize they're still shooting...it's pretty traumatic. The saying goes that if it's good enough to fire once...firing more can't hurt. Because of TV and the movies everyone thinks bad guys just explode when you shoot them...but in real life, they don't...in fact, it's usually pretty hard to even see that you've hit the bad guy. See, folks don't immediately gush blood like in the movies...we're just not that juicy. So when you hit the bad guy it doesn't show up like a big red hole...it's hard to see if you've really hit the guy...so you shoot again and again until your sure their not going to get up and kill you. Don't forget...you're more scared than you ever have been in your entire life and a second prior that bad guy was trying to kill you or someone else...or you wouldn't be shooting in the first place.

[kuutio]

FTp

[jimmi5]

Suicide by cop, nothing more nothing less.