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#62
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12-04-2014, 06:02 PM
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| So Fucking Banned Poster Rank:1967 Male, last I checked. Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 255 Mentioned: 2 Post(s) Quoted: 18 Post(s)
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Re: Woman's Experience With Black Salve
As I've spent the last five years researching Black Salve (or 'bloodroot salve' - and do remember there are a large number of iterations all called "Black Salve" even if they're tainted, crazy or will eat your face) I think I shall step in and give my two cents. And as a note, no - I don't recommend putting a big goddamned glob of the stuff on your nob - you're supposed to use tiny amounts at a bloody time, especially if you don't know how far the 'problem tissue(s)' run. The woman with the exposed nasal bits has a thread on topicalinfo.org and you can read her whole story there. She would have been getting MOHS surgery but opted for BS (Black Salve) -- either way she was going to lose the tip of her nose, so one can only say that the 'salve did as it was supposed to and destroyed the suspect tissues'. Many people put BS on parts of their bodies that they are fairly certain have no cancer/suspect cells...and there's no reaction. So to say that it 'eats flesh indiscriminately' the way the quackwatch article suggests is hogwash (there's a video on youtube where Greg Canton (or one of his fellows) actually shoves his hand into a bag of a chemical quackwatch and BS detractors say dissolves tissue upon contact. I've talked to, read, watched and otherwise built up my current understanding of 'Amazon Black Salve' (or Tumor X, Cansema, Cancer X, Bloodroot Paste, etc etc) and I will say the most convincing parts come from talking first hand with people that've done it and have images to share. Ken Murray (youtube), GVLOANGUY (youtube - this fellow was a friend of mine that died anyway as his cancer was far too advanced) and others - there are FB groups and private chat boards where one can talk to people about it. No, I don't think anyone should slather it on their bodies - I say it again, yes, because it's important and BS is NOT gentle in most of it's incarnations - but I do think it's a valuable tool in the right circumstances. BSI International uses several variations of bloodroot paste to excellent effect - if you scroll down and check out their 'cases' (especially the breast cancer ones and 'Mr. M') you will have plenty of disgusting fodder for the eyes...as well as being able to see how effectively Black Salve(s) can be used. Man, I wish my laptop wasn't borked right now, I'd give you guys some amazing images, stories and links... |
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#63
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12-04-2014, 06:27 PM
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| So Fucking Banned Poster Rank:1967 Male, last I checked. Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 255 Mentioned: 2 Post(s) Quoted: 18 Post(s)
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Re: Woman's Experience With Black Salve
As an added note, Mohs surgery once included using an escharotic bloodroot paste along with the slice-and-dice used singly today. |
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#65
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12-04-2014, 11:46 PM
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 ★The Queen★ Poster Rank:67 Female Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 23,498
Contributions: 120
Mentioned: 95 Post(s) Quoted: 3083 Post(s)
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Re: Woman's Experience With Black Salve
The parents who killed the babies in that link should be hung upside down with black salve on their genitalia and asses until they rot or die! I prefer they rot, ASSuming it would take longer.   for the innocents
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#66
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12-05-2014, 11:32 AM
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| My Rank: PRIVATE Poster Rank:8091 Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 22 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Quoted: 3 Post(s)
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Re: Woman's Experience With Black Salve
Kiarhu, some more balanced (and evidence based) information from. Dermatologist on the same forum... At the suggestion of anivoc, I have been going through some of the information about bloodroot, and associated preparations – primarily what is called “black salve”. Just to be clear, "black salve" is not necessarily the same as the active ingredient (sanguinarine in the main, but with the addition of other plant extracts some of which contain other active ingredients, (eg. Berberine). These do not always have the same biochemical properties, but many extracts (including sanguinarine) are from a group of chemical compounds called quaternary ammonium salts, in other words, they all have a structure which includes a Nitrogen ion (positively charged, linked to other organic chains or hydrogen (NH3 being ammonia, and NH4+ being ammonium). All of these compounds have varying degrees of anti-microbial, and other cytotoxic (cell killing) properties. And this is why some of them are found in anti-septic preparations eg. Mouthwashes. The other primary ingredient – zinc chloride is a simple salt, which can be corrosive and has industrial and biological applications. Again – in dilute form can be used as an anti-septic. The product that is promoted as a skin cancer therapy (cansema/black salve) is usually zinc Chloride combined with sanguinarine via bloodroot extract, plus other substances. The other use is as a tissue fixative – which is where the Mohs chemosurgery application fits – but that is really the subject of another post (at least one). There is a lot to talk about when considering the potential application of these products (indeed this is one of the main areas of discussion in these forums), but I really only want to address two claims (or myths) about bloodroot/black slave in this post – and will follow up other issues in future posts. I have noted that there are a few other “sceptics” posting on this forum. In some of these, I detect a dismissive or aggressive approach to people who have used or wish to use or believe that there are benefits from black salve. On the contrary, I support a person's right to choose, but also want to make sure that is an informed decision, and the facts come through the often confusing and contradictory claims made on all sides. If in doubt – rely on the science – that means what is the evidence, and what is the mechanism – magic doesn't exist, and if we don't know the mechanism, then we really don't understand the process. Also remember the easiest person to fool is yourself. The first claim I think needs to be countered is that that these products do not attack or damage healthy cells, and the second is that it will seek out and destroy all malignant or cancerous cells. This second claim I do not believe is one that all of the contributors to this site make, but certainly there are promoters of black salve who make this claim purportedly to advance the notion that this is a superior mode of therapy to other means – typically surgery etc. As you might gather – I don’t subscribe to either of these, and a moments reflection should given anyone cause to doubt. This type of absolutist claim is typical of much false advertising “New / improved! 100% guaranteed!, Unique formula! Different from other products! …..” Reminds me of a certain acupuncturist from Australia, who, while accurately quoting from research published through the Cochrane collection that acupuncture is no more successful than placebo for smoking cessation, then claims that his “unique” method of acupuncture is “different” from all the other methods and 98% successful in getting people to stop smoking. I guess what he could mean is that they don't have a cigarette while having the treatment – what happens after that – well who knows? Of course he had the usual disclaimer on his website that “.... The entire contents of this website are based upon the opinions and experience of [REDACTED] and its associates, unless otherwise noted. Individual articles are based upon the opinions of the authors, who retain copyright as marked. The information on this website is not intended to replace a relationship or consultation with any qualified health care professional and is not intended as medical advice. It is intended as a sharing of knowledge and information from the research and experience of [REDACTED]and its associates and co workers. “ But I digress. I know that some contributors to this forum have stated that they has applied black salve to skin and had no reaction – in comparison to a BCC for example. This says more about the quality of healthy skin rather than a “selective” feature of sanguinarine/ZnCl mixture. For a short period of time, the hardened keratin of normal skin is waterproof and has sufficient integrity to prevent penetration of the chemicals. Contrast that to the friable damaged epidermis of a skin cancer. The keratin layer is thinned or absent, allowing rapid penetration. Remember even in Mohs' original work, he specifically removed the keratin using dichloracetic acid and manually scraping it off. This then allowed penetration of the ZnCl to fix the tissues prior to excision and histologically examination Given enough time, however, and particularly with moist environments, the chemical compounds will penetrate even healthy normal skin, and commence the process of cell destruction. A recent example in the Australian literature (MJA (2014; 200 (6) :314), and reported in the Sydney Morning Herald and Australian Doctor magazine) shows just this effect. (Looking for the image but an approximately 5 - 7 cm (2 - 2 1/2 inch) circular lesion on the right temple with a thickened black eschar. A search of the Sydney morning herald website should find it) In this case report the person had apparently repeatedly applied black salve to a lesion over some time – unclear if this was weeks / months, but this had inevitably resulted in the destruction of the tissue in this uniform circular fashion, clear evidence of an indiscriminate process simply destroying organic tissue in proportion to the quantity and time of application of the material. Now in this case, there could well have been a skin cancer which was the original target, and this may well have reacted preferentially. Once the skin integrity was breached, destruction of healthy tissue occurred, particular with repeated applications – perhaps in the mistaken view that continued reaction indicated further cancer beyond the initial lesion. At the cellular level, sanguinarine acts on the Sodium/Potassium pump. Potassium being the main INTRA-cellular ion, and Sodium EXTRA-cellular. To maintain normal cell volume and resting potential, the Na/K pump moves potassium into the cell, and Sodium out, creating the resting potential, and a Sodium gradient, which then allows other biologically active chemicals – such as glucose to be transported into the cell. Failure of the pump results in an influx of Sodium, which brings water with it, the cell swells and eventually ruptures. There is nothing specific about this process – given sufficient concentration of sanguinarine, all cells will blow up and die in this manner – as demonstrated by the unfortunate individual in this case. The other important claim about sanguinarine / black salve is that it actively seeks out and destroys cancer cells. Now this could be quite a useful feature – even if there was some collateral damage along the way. But again the evidence for black salve is found wanting. I have referenced previously the NZ medsafe website (http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/safety/EW...lack-salve.asp), which clearly demonstrates a number of cases where treatment with black salve failed to eradicate all of the tumour. Of course, critics could claim that this is selective reporting, and that this only focuses on a small number of “failures” while ignoring many successes. By the way, one failure is all that is needed to disprove the claim. Nonetheless, the evidence is there that treatment with a sanguinarine / ZnCl compound did not always result in total eradication of a cancer – and required further treatment. It is up to proponents to provide credible counter evidence (ie. Successful documented treatments, taking into account intention to treat, drop outs, conversion to alternative treatment, lost to follow up, etc. etc. - in other words all the things expected from properly conducted research projects). Now I will be the first to admit that not all RCTs (Randomised Controlled Trials) of conventional therapy meet the highest rigorous standards, but that is the goal. An important thing to note is that one off testimonials are the worst form of evidence – prone to bias and lacking any form of control. Sanguinarine/black salve - is it cancer specific and 100 % effective? No way – both of those myths are well and truly busted. The challenge for black salve proponents is to demonstrate that its cytotoxic effect can be sufficiently harnessed and preferentially directed to malignant cells (and the MECHANISM UNDERSTOOD) before its credibility as a superior skin cancer treatment can be advanced. As always – consult an experienced skin cancer professional – one with an open mind and a willingness to engage. That, incidentally is my objective. Thanks for reading. |
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#67
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12-05-2014, 11:42 AM
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| My Rank: PRIVATE Poster Rank:8091 Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 22 Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Quoted: 3 Post(s)
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Re: Woman's Experience With Black Salve
The main point being that although there is some evidence it is cytotoxic, it is NOT cancer specific and will damage healthy tissue if the skin is broken or damaged or the salve is left on long enough.
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