[FrankRagsdale]

umm guys i think she peed her pants a little bit

[Susan]

Originally Posted by nudibranches646 ↗

How would they know?

No idea. I just read it in a scientific study.

[souris]

why'd they toss water on her crotch area? animals!

[trean362]

She must have been busting for a pee, until it all got too nasty

[LERK]

Originally Posted by Vedderman ↗

Impossible to say for certain, since we don't know at what point she lost consciousness or died. My research findings, which are based on an array of criminology classroom lectures, police reports, court transcripts, and interviews, have indicated that most strangulation survivors had a conscious awareness of bladder and bowel loss late in the process. A few have indicated that they only realized it when they regained consciousness later, but most have been aware of it happening. Of course, it is also likely in a scenario such as this that she pissed herself in fear during the process and well before death.

I've actually been trying to figure out where she was murdered and in what sort of orientation. It is obvious in several of the photos that she had a very full bladder when she was dying, as the urine staining (which largely seems still damp and not dried at all) extends all the way down both thighs, and past her knees. It is also visible on both the front and the back of her legs, as well as down the inside of both thighs. The lower seat of her jeans is also saturated with it. Gravity would indicate that she was likely not lying down at the time of death. I would guess that she was either seated, perhaps in a vehicle, or even possibly stood up. Though standing up may have been awkward with her ankles tightly tied.

You can also see in all of the images that show her underpants that the seat of her panties is soaked all the way to the waistband. The seat of her jeans, however, seems to be mostly dry above the halfway mark, but extensively wet below that. Based on the abrasion on her elbow and the fact that her trousers are pulled partway down, I assume that they dragged her along the pavement to position her body after dumping it out of the vehicle. But trying to match the urine pattern on her panties with the one on her jeans is awkward, almost like her pants were hiked way up when she died. I'd have expected the urine staining on her undergarment to match the one on her jeans.

You certainly know your urine.

Carry on.

[Brynjar]

Originally Posted by Muzziphilia ↗

I wonder if she felt herself peeing

This comment belongs in the "need to know" category.

[Brynjar]

Originally Posted by LERK ↗

You certainly know your urine.

Carry on.

Professor Pee knows his pee.

[Razorhead]

Great set, thanks. One for the bladder thread.

[Vedderman]

So I spent almost three hours last night talking with the lead investigator on this case. Language barrier is awkward sometimes (my Spanish is weak), but he gave an extensive amount of detail on the background of the case and the scene itself, etc, if people are interested in hearing it.

Unfortunately, he did not pass on any further photos. He said he had an entire roll from the scene, but while he was comfortable discussing data, he didn't want to pass me police photographs for fear of getting int trouble. He also said that she 'died a very undignified death' and he wished to preserve some dignity for her memory by not sharing them. He presumed I hadn't seen photos already, I suppose. He said she was not sexually assaulted or stripped, so I assume he was referring to her soiling herself so visibly.

Anyway, for those interested in background, there are two rival gangs vying for control in this city in Guatemala, referred to as The 18's and The Busitos. They make money from drugs to a small degree, but most of their income is derived from extortion.

The girl featured in this photo and her cousin (the male decedent from the adjacent crime scene) were brought into contact with one of the gangs (he believes The Busitos) through her ex-boyfriend. The extortion racket in this area is extremely pervasive. Basically, if you have a business, you pay. If you have a home, you pay. If you drive a cab, you pay. If you have any money at all, you pay. There are so many thousands of people being extorted that the gangs themselves don't have the muscle to make individual collections. So they often recruit 'civilians' who want a taste of the gangster life to do collections for them in their neighborhoods. They aren't strong-arm collections. just picking up envelopes from local business people and home owners and handing them off.

The investigator said that their investigation indicated that the girl and her cousin either lost or stole a payment. He wasn't sure which, or under what specific circumstances. But he said that the gangs feel it better to make an example of lost payments rather than just absorb them. he mentioned that they'd have had an easier time of it if they'd betrayed The 18's, since their MO is just to shoot people who piss them off. The Busitos like to make an impression and their favorite method is strangling/bagging because it is very slow, terrifying, torturous, and humiliating. The second girl in the equation was just the cousin's girlfriend and this dead one's best friend. She had nothing to do with collections, but was with them when they were lifted.

He said that their investigation concluded several things, but no convictions, obviously. He believes that Daniela (the girl featured in the OP) was the dominant member of the group and likely the one that stole/lost the money. They believe that the three of them were placed in a sliding-panel van (the vehicles are like VW microbuses and are where the gang derives its name from) and bound tightly at their wrists and ankles. All three were likely crowded together and forced to their knees on the hard steel floor of the work van. He said that Daniela was likely bagged immediately and the other two were were positioned so as to see her.

He thinks due to the times of death and the internal dynamic, that they slowly suffocated Daniela in front of the other two in order to scare them into talking about where the money was hidden. They presumably gave the wrong answers, if they knew anything at all. He estimated that it took her around 5 minutes to die in front of them, assuming they didn't drag it out further. When the other two didn't talk, they asphyxiated them too.

In reference to the comments I made earlier in the thread, he said the police concluded that she died on her knees. He said that she had bruises on her knees that would be normal for being forced into that position on the floor of an uncarpeted work van. He also said that the forensic investigator addressed the issue of the urine. Because it covered the front of her jeans to the knees and the back almost to the knees, he believes that the pattern staining corroborates this. He mentioned that bladder voiding is very common in suffocation deaths (which most people here know), but because of the amount and the spread of the pattern, she probably started urinating herself in fear while still alive and on her knees. There was more urine on the front of her jeans than the back so he opined that she then lost full control of her sphincters in her final death throws, after she was lying prostrate. She had bitten her tongue during the suffocation process and the skin was very raw and abraded around the ligatures on her wrists, indicating that she likely struggled hard once she realized her fate.

Her cousin and his girlfriend were killed in a similar fashion, though they had also been strangled, so it may have been a bit quicker. The ligatures used to bind all three were identical and the knots used on each were also the same.

The body dumps were weird and caused him a lot of aggravation. He said that the dumping area was not a usual one for The Busitos and he thinks that they took all three bodies out in the van to dump under cover of darkness. But apparently the area they picked is a bedroom community with about 85,000 people living in it. He thinks they went out to dump all three bodies in the same place, but were surprised by oncoming headlights while starting to move her so they just rolled her out the bay door of the van and took off. They then came back about an hour later to dump the other two, but wound up dropping them further down the road because her body had already been discovered by that point. He indicated that her body was still warm and the urine on her clothes was still freshly wet, so they determined that her body was discovered less than 30 minutes after her death.

One of the neighbors he interviewed said her ex-boyfriend had been seen talking to her the day before she was abducted and that he had not been seen since. So police are unsure as to whether he was a participant in the murders or if he may have been murdered himself.

[LERK]

I guess they got their taste of the gangster life.