[rudderman]

Originally Posted by jessica17 ↗

The thing I have a hard time understanding is when someone hangs themselves and their feet still touch the ground how is not just instinct to stand up?

when the noose kicks in, there's no instincts, there are only reflexes. simple, like grab the pain.

you don't even need full suspension for that, just cut blood supply to your brain, and that's it.

after that you will be a ragdoll spasming on to get something to breathe, not to stand up.

[kellyhound]

tragic case, great find

[Bruiseviolet]

Originally Posted by Simone ↗

Nice find, Ved'.

What a pretty outfit she chose to die in. Do you think that bears any significance, such as maybe what she would have worn at her wedding had she not separated from her ex?

She might have just wanted to go out looking pretty, not knowing hanging suicides rarely do.

[K53]

Nice dress for this final photo

[SimoneFlen']

Any updates as of yet, Vedderman ?

[Vedderman]

Originally Posted by Simone ↗

Any updates as of yet, Vedderman ?

Not that I can find. There are some 'protest' movements on social media platforms to have her death more carefully investigated, but they seem pretty weak. No meaningful movement in terms of a prosecution or anything.

Usually there isn't in these cases. I'd say that of the suicides I research in south Asia (India, Napal, etc) at least 3 times out of 5, the girl's family cries murder.

Now, about 1 in 12 or so actually DOES turn out to be murder, either a case of actually strangling the girl to death and staging a hanging or a case of a willful, concerted effort to abuse and ruin her so deeply that she takes the rope herself. This is usually done for financial purposes.

A family arranges a marriage, the bride's parents pay a (usually several years' wages worth) heavy dowry to the groom's family. And after a year or two the family conspires to kill the woman off or drive her to suicide. Then, guess what. Yup...they arrange another marriage for the son...with another hefty dowry.

They've prosecuted cases of families doing this to 3, 4, 5 women...

[SimoneFlen']

Originally Posted by Vedderman ↗

Not that I can find. There are some 'protest' movements on social media platforms to have her death more carefully investigated, but they seem pretty weak. No meaningful movement in terms of a prosecution or anything.

Usually there isn't in these cases. I'd say that of the suicides I research in south Asia (India, Napal, etc) at least 3 times out of 5, the girl's family cries murder.

Now, about 1 in 12 or so actually DOES turn out to be murder, either a case of actually strangling the girl to death and staging a hanging or a case of a willful, concerted effort to abuse and ruin her so deeply that she takes the rope herself. This is usually done for financial purposes.

A family arranges a marriage, the bride's parents pay a (usually several years' wages worth) heavy dowry to the groom's family. And after a year or two the family conspires to kill the woman off or drive her to suicide. Then, guess what. Yup...they arrange another marriage for the son...with another hefty dowry.

They've prosecuted cases of families doing this to 3, 4, 5 women...

Thank you for the info, Ved'. Hopefully there will be some closure soon.

Reminds me of the Cambodian political staffer thread of yours from ages ago, when it turned out that the woman had in fact been murdered, not committed suicide.

[Vedderman]

Originally Posted by Simone ↗

Thank you for the info, Ved'. Hopefully there will be some closure soon.

Reminds me of the Cambodian political staffer thread of yours from ages ago, when it turned out that the woman had in fact been murdered, not committed suicide.

Yeah, there are some similarities. And it took -years- for the Cambodian case to be formally determined a homicide. Some of the staging there was very convincing and some was dicey. They left fingermarks in her neck when they strangled her and tried to cover them up by tucking her fingers under the noose. And they shoulda changed her clothes. The urine stains on her pants and shirt matched the urine stain on the mattress where they strangled her, but not her hanging position.
They did a good job masking several things though.

This case, I'm not sure about. I did some more reading (it's a tough language) and it looks like the police more of less wrote it off. Her parents raised a huge stink about never getting a copy of the autopsy report. I wrote a few emails to try to obtain it myself (I have gotten several this way), but was told that it was no longer on file. The report would tell us if her hyoid bone was fractured, if there were other injuries on her body, fi she was drugged, if she'd been raped, etc.

There are a few physical factors that make me feel this is an authentic hanging suicide, though.

First off, the saliva is actually very telling. Salivary glands do not produce saliva after death. The fact that there is still obviously-wet saliva dripping from her when she was discovered and photographed lends itself very strongly to her dying of mechanical asphyxiation via hanging. If she'd been choked out, she would have sprayed spit during that process, but it would not have continued to be produced and drip down her face after they hanged her dead body.

The ligature bruising matches the noose exactly and there are no additional scratches, bruises, indentations, or finger marks visible on her throat.

Her protruding tongue is more consistent with a hanging death than a strangulation. It can happen in strangulation, but usually only occurs with decedents that have very muscular or fatty necks, and the protracted effort of strangling them takes a long time. It is much more common in hangings due to noose placement and pressure of gravity on the neck musculature.

Finger position is quite consistent with hanging.

Finally, somewhat similar to the Cambodian case you mentioned, there's the urine. There are urine stains on the back/inside of one or both of her legs and what I believe are pretty clearly two puddles of urine where her feet were during the hanging. As mentioned earlier, the body has likely been moved back a bit by the first responders and her family, but you can still see where one of her feet dragged through the liquid in the process. Given the very high likelihood that she voided her bladder during the process of asphyxiation, it makes it significantly probable that she died in that position with her feet on the floor in a partial suspension hanging orientation.

That's an amateur analysis, but better than the data you'll get from the Umerkot forensic lab, LOL.

[SimoneFlen']

Originally Posted by Vedderman ↗

Yeah, there are some similarities. And it took -years- for the Cambodian case to be formally determined a homicide. Some of the staging there was very convincing and some was dicey. They left fingermarks in her neck when they strangled her and tried to cover them up by tucking her fingers under the noose. And they shoulda changed her clothes. The urine stains on her pants and shirt matched the urine stain on the mattress where they strangled her, but not her hanging position.
They did a good job masking several things though.

This case, I'm not sure about. I did some more reading (it's a tough language) and it looks like the police more of less wrote it off. Her parents raised a huge stink about never getting a copy of the autopsy report. I wrote a few emails to try to obtain it myself (I have gotten several this way), but was told that it was no longer on file. The report would tell us if her hyoid bone was fractured, if there were other injuries on her body, fi she was drugged, if she'd been raped, etc.

There are a few physical factors that make me feel this is an authentic hanging suicide, though.

First off, the saliva is actually very telling. Salivary glands do not produce saliva after death. The fact that there is still obviously-wet saliva dripping from her when she was discovered and photographed lends itself very strongly to her dying of mechanical asphyxiation via hanging. If she'd been choked out, she would have sprayed spit during that process, but it would not have continued to be produced and drip down her face after they hanged her dead body.

The ligature bruising matches the noose exactly and there are no additional scratches, bruises, indentations, or finger marks visible on her throat.

Her protruding tongue is more consistent with a hanging death than a strangulation. It can happen in strangulation, but usually only occurs with decedents that have very muscular or fatty necks, and the protracted effort of strangling them takes a long time. It is much more common in hangings due to noose placement and pressure of gravity on the neck musculature.

Finger position is quite consistent with hanging.

Finally, somewhat similar to the Cambodian case you mentioned, there's the urine. There are urine stains on the back/inside of one or both of her legs and what I believe are pretty clearly two puddles of urine where her feet were during the hanging. As mentioned earlier, the body has likely been moved back a bit by the first responders and her family, but you can still see where one of her feet dragged through the liquid in the process. Given the very high likelihood that she voided her bladder during the process of asphyxiation, it makes it significantly probable that she died in that position with her feet on the floor in a partial suspension hanging orientation.

That's an amateur analysis, but better than the data you'll get from the Umerkot forensic lab, LOL.

It's shocking that the Cambodian case took so long, considering just the urine stains alone. How they didn't figure out that it didn't quite match up, I don't know!

With regards to this case, do the parents not have a right to the autopsy report then, or would that only be the case if she was a child (otherwise they'd have to go through the courts)? The fact that you were told that it's no longer on file, just makes it seems like they have something to hide.

Don't play yourself down with your thoughts just being amateur; you definitely know what you're talking about (maybe more so than some 3rd world medical 'professionals'!). With your description of all the points that indicate a suicide, rather than murder, it certainly makes sense.

Maybe the parents just can't deal with the fact their daughter killed herself. Or maybe they do genuinely believe that she was murdered. Either way, I hope they get some closure, I can only imagine the hell they're going through at the moment.