[Mad Child]

Originally Posted by Kersten ↗

WHERE? Um try all the Christianity fueled legislation... trying to teach creationism in schools, keeping gays from marrying b/c they want to keep marriage "holy". You tell ME where any atheists are trying to push THEIR views on others- we are simply trying to keep religion out of our lives and keep Christian values out of our business.

Welcome to liberal democracy and a free public square, where every group has its special interests.

You are just as free to try to teach evolution in schools and pass legislation in favor of gay 'marriage'. From the looks of things, you lot are not slackers in this department either.

The separation of church and state entails the freedom to believe whatever you want without fear of legal action because of it, not freedom from the influence of religion on the society that you live in. If the latter is what you desire, North Korea is that-a-way...

[Kehko]

Originally Posted by Mad Child ↗

The separation of church and state is actually a Baptist innovation (read up on the 17th century English Baptists), designed to protect Baptists and other nonconformist evangelical Christians, who could not in good conscience, for doctrinal reasons, belong to the state church (the Church of England), from persecution by the state. They, in Britain and in America, have been this principle's greatest champions -- even if this fact may seem paradoxical to some historically ignorant atheists (for instance, those who believe that the typical conservative Baptist/evangelical desires to see an American 'theocracy' or some such). The full separation of church and state is an article in the confession of faith of my very conservative, old-school Baptist church -- if you do not believe in it, you are not welcome to join.

Personally, I would trust Baptists and other evangelicals with my freedom of religion before I would trust atheists with it any day of the week. The latter group does not have a very impressive record at all on this point. Historically, when atheists take power, religious freedom is compromised if not abrogated. The state invariably encroaches on the rights and freedoms of the church... which is a tacit rejection of the principle of the separation of church and state.

idk about THAT... You could say the same thing about when Christians and Muslims take power.

And I know the origins of separation of church and state... I paid attention in my college Early Modern European History class. Just because the original baptists wanted separation of church & state, it doesn't mean the typical contemporary conservative Baptist/evangelical does. IDK where u get "historically ignorant atheists"... like evangelicals all know their religion's history, let alone world history.

I know religion is going to influence society, and I have no qualms with that, but no matter what you say- teaching my child creationism in public schools IS infringing on my freedom of religion. A young child is impressionable and will believe what she is told, and since going to elementary thru high school with an gov't approved curriculum is required, then it is not a stretch to say it is forcing Christianity on that child.

I don't have the energy right now to discuss EVERY issue that involves right-wing christian values being forced upon me... but you get the idea.

[Mad Child]

Originally Posted by Kersten ↗

I know religion is going to influence society, and I have no qualms with that, but no matter what you say- teaching my child creationism in public schools IS infringing on my freedom of religion. A young child is impressionable and will believe what she is told, and since going to elementary thru high school with an gov't approved curriculum is required, then it is not a stretch to say it is forcing Christianity on that child.

Lots of Americans feel the same way about evolutionary theories being 'forced' on their children.

How are their concerns less important than yours?

[Kehko]

Originally Posted by Mad Child ↗

Lots of Americans feel the same way about evolutionary theories being 'forced' on their children.

How are their concerns less important than yours?

well what do you propose? Not teaching the child anything b/c it may offend a religion? Or teach what is scientifically proven? (and what encourages/allows for improvements in medicine and technology)

[Mad Child]

Originally Posted by Kersten ↗

IDK where u get "historically ignorant atheists"...

From my experience, the young contemporary atheist tends to oversimplify eras based on the fact that the Church/theology was the dominant sociopolitical force in them. The presupposition is that devoutly religious persons are not very intelligent, creative, or open to ideas. Medieval Europe, for instance, is often negatively caricatured as if the entire span of the period was the 'Dark Ages', basically ignoring the vibrant philosophical and scientific communities which flourished throughout... because the philosopher-scientists happened to be Christian monks, and primarily theologians.

[Ugh82]

This subject will always be a bicker back and forth kind of conversation. Im glad i dont give a shit either way

[jydundeel]

<a href="http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=217159269& albumID=1477750&imageID=16595403"><img src="http://hotlink.myspacecdn.com/images01/41/1a16784458be645fbe4659ed2413b1be/m.jpg" alt="SO EVIL!" /></a>

made this when a long time ago

[Al Bundy]

[Al Bundy]

[eukaryote]

Originally Posted by Kersten ↗

well what do you propose? Not teaching the child anything b/c it may offend a religion? Or teach what is scientifically proven? (and what encourages/allows for improvements in medicine and technology)

If I may play devil's advocate for a moment... there is no definitive proof for evolution. Think of it like a connect-the-dots puzzle. Every new piece of evidence is like a new dot that's been added. Evolution is a theory, though granted, one that has more historical evidence than creationism.

There's nothing wrong with offering more than one point of view to a child, to allow him or her to choose what to believe. Teaching creationism does not necessarily mean that a teacher will stand there and basically force your child to accept it, merely to offer that particular alternate theory of abiogenesis.