[scorpion9]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

They don’t like to hear anything about what US did… it’s “WHATABOUTISM.” I still think this “WHATABOUTISM” defense they came up with is so stupid They have made this a rule to not compare bad Russia to US What can you do we are outnumbered here

Nah,

People don't like "whataboutism" because it's illogical and broken thinking.
It's like saying...look at the horrible terror that US has done. Since US did horrible things, this gives us the right to do horrible things to our neighbors.

Replace the countries with people and you will see how stupid using any "whataboutism" is.

John watches a documentary about a serial killer who killed 30 people and is still on the loose.

John now remembers that he could use a new larger TV, so he walks across the street into a neighbor's house. He walks in on the family having dinner and starts chopping off their heads. After killing 2 kids and the wife, another neighbor Mike barges in and shouts "Stop, why are you doing something so monstrous and evil?"

John replies: "Im gona take their TV...ive been wanting a new one for a while now"

Mike says: "You can't just kill people and take what's theirs"

John replies: "What about that serial killer that killed 30 people? What about that guy...huh ? He got to kill 30 people and I can't kill just 4? That's ridiculous. Go fuck off and talk to me when once i have killed at least 20."

Mike accepting whataboutism replies: "Oh, shit, sorry mate. I had forgotten that serial killer story in the news. You are right...my bad. Carry on"

Neighbor guy before getting his head chopped off says his last words: "What does that serial killer in another country has to do with me? Im a completely different person...with different history and different values.

* chop chop *
Head rolls and Russians hail the new murderer on the block.

[WonderMomma]

When I tried to warn our new friend about Whataboutism, I was referring specifically to the rules and guidelines that Kellyhound (mod) set for these threads months ago. Not for him as advice for life in general.

Just here.

But I agree, "whataboutism" is a defense mechanism and deflection tactic that's very counter productive.

It's what children do when being scolded for cursing... "what about when you tell mom to fuck off"

It's what adults do in arguments with their partners... "what about the time you slept with that $2 hooker when I was out of town?"

It's what teenagers do when they get busted smoking weed "what about the fact that dad smokes up in his man cave every night?"



This realization has helped me, personally, stop "whatabouting" in many aspects of life as well as not accepting it when others try to deflect by doing it.

Not allowing whataboutism in a chat environment about hot topics is very important and effective to keep discussions on top and focused. If not, there is an infinite rabbit hole of whatabout scenarios one could fall into until we're not even talking about the subject of the thread at all.

That very thing has happened in this section before. Perhaps I could have made that a little more clear... although I'm not sure it would have helped, based on my experiences thus far.

[duntez]

Originally Posted by scorpion9 ↗

Nah,

People don't like "whataboutism" because it's illogical and broken thinking.
It's like saying...look at the horrible terror that US has done. Since US did horrible things, this gives us the right to do horrible things to our neighbors.

Replace the countries with people and you will see how stupid using any "whataboutism" is.

John watches a documentary about a serial killer who killed 30 people and is still on the loose.

John now remembers that he could use a new larger TV, so he walks across the street into a neighbor's house. He walks in on the family having dinner and starts chopping off their heads. After killing 2 kids and the wife, another neighbor Mike barges in and shouts "Stop, why are you doing something so monstrous and evil?"

John replies: "Im gona take their TV...ive been wanting a new one for a while now"

Mike says: "You can't just kill people and take what's theirs"

John replies: "What about that serial killer that killed 30 people? What about that guy...huh ? He got to kill 30 people and I can't kill just 4? That's ridiculous. Go fuck off and talk to me when once i have killed at least 20."

Mike accepting whataboutism replies: "Oh, shit, sorry mate. I had forgotten that serial killer story in the news. You are right...my bad. Carry on"

Neighbor guy before getting his head chopped off says his last words: "What does that serial killer in another country has to do with me? Im a completely different person...with different history and different values.

* chop chop *
Head rolls and Russians hail the new murderer on the block.

This is stupid

WHATABOUTISM suppose to teach you what’s good and what’s not and not like in your example - use it as a devil source of doing wrong or something It suppose to teach you simple things - Don’t do “this” to the kid if you don’t want to get the same response in return. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Etc

It’s not about US being evil so Russia can too. It’s about US done bad things, legitimated it through their control of western world/media, w/e and call it end of a day. Than judging other countries for practically the same thing, while playing saint.
It was never about WHATABOUTISM, really… you guys came up with this word. Im just trying to show how hypocrite US government is on international arena. Well and maybe some of you for buying that.

[WonderMomma]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

This is stupid

WHATABOUTISM suppose to teach you what’s good and what’s not and not like in your example - use it as a devil source of doing wrong or something It suppose to teach you simple things - Don’t do “this” to the kid if you don’t want to get the same response in return. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Etc

It’s not about US being evil so Russia can too. It’s about US done bad things, legitimated it through their control of western world/media, w/e and call it end of a day. Than judging other countries for practically the same thing, while playing saint.
It was never about WHATABOUTISM, really… you guys came up with this word. Im just trying to show how hypocrite US government is on international arena. Well and maybe some of you for buying that.

Duntez...

We came up with it, eh? It's not something that's literally been around since two humans could debate each other, right? It's never been done or talked about until these threads came along, right? I don't think you know what "whataboutsim" really is... based on your response and that is ok if you don't. Just don't pretend to know what it is and then say we invented the concept because that's absolutely false.

What makes you think any of us who participate in here regularly need YOU or anyone pointing America's hypocrisies out to us? We're aware of the hypocrisies that exist across the board. US government, Russian government, Ukrainian government... the government of Timbuktu... every government. Despite what you and your counterparts think, we're not stupid nor blind. Yes, once again, I will say... the media is fucked up too... how many times must we say this?

But the central focus of this section/these threads is not how hypocritical the US government is. If the US had troops on the ground fighting in Ukraine or Russia, I'd say it would be in the scope of discussion. The aid and support the US is sending to Ukraine, absolutely on topic. But what the US has done in any other circumstance is not on topic.

Just because we were born here and have lived here our whole lives "ruled" by the government, doesn't mean we don't see it. Anyone who doesn't see it has their head buried in the sand or chooses to remain blissfully ignorant. It's historically obvious but shockingly blatant in the last 21 years. At the same time, just because you were NOT born here doesn't mean you can see it any clearer, I assure you. We've said this repeatedly, but keep getting it shoved into our faces as if you aren't listening. This has got to be at least the 50th time I've said it.

Whataboutism is not about treating people as you want to be treated. I'm not sure how you came to that definition but that leans more toward respect. Russia certainly isn't treating people how they want to be treated.

Whataboutism is changing of a subject to deflect from a current or related situation/accusation. But not only that, it's literally the reversal of an accusation.

If you accuse me of something and confront me with it and instead of refuting the accusation with the truth, admitting to it, or talking about it at all I immediately turn the tables and accuse you of something equally horrible or worse, so I don't have to. THAT is whataboutism.

Have you ever had a discussion with your wife or girlfriend where you voiced any concerns about something she did... and she turns the tables around on you to make you out to be the bad guy? Whataboutism happens in relationships all the time.

It's a form of manipulation in a conversation and it's been around forever and ever and used by many. For some it's consciously done, for others it's more of a reactive occurrence where they may not realize what exactly they're doing. When someone has no way to defend their actions (or someone else's they are aligned with) or simply wants to avoid doing so; they resort to whataboutism.

It's presently being used in the US political system between both parties like it's part of the job. A republican points out something a democrat did and instead of addressing the accusation the democrat responds by saying "well, you did x,y or z". Very unproductive behavior and now we have both parties so busy with pointing the finger at each other, fuck all gets resolved.

Whataboutism is not allowed in this section, specifically any thread related to the RU/UA war because it's been proven to completely derail the discussion of the war itself. I can't speak for everyone but personally, I do not need you or anyone pointing any egregious behavior of the country I was born and raised in; where I spent a majority of my life privy to such through my military and politically connected family.

If we were in a thread called "Hypocrisies and Fallacies of the US Government"... you and I would agree on many things.... perhaps even most things except that NONE of those things excuse or have direct bearing on what Russia is currently doing in Ukraine or to it's people.

[duntez]

Originally Posted by WonderMomma ↗

Duntez...

We came up with it, eh? It's not something that's literally been around since two humans could debate each other, right? It's never been done or talked about until these threads came along, right? I don't think you know what "whataboutsim" really is... based on your response and that is ok if you don't. Just don't pretend to know what it is and then say we invented the concept because that's absolutely false.

What makes you think any of us who participate in here regularly need YOU or anyone pointing America's hypocrisies out to us? We're aware of the hypocrisies that exist across the board. US government, Russian government, Ukrainian government... the government of Timbuktu... every government. Despite what you and your counterparts think, we're not stupid nor blind. Yes, once again, I will say... the media is fucked up too... how many times must we say this?

But the central focus of this section/these threads is not how hypocritical the US government is. If the US had troops on the ground fighting in Ukraine or Russia, I'd say it would be in the scope of discussion. The aid and support the US is sending to Ukraine, absolutely on topic. But what the US has done in any other circumstance is not on topic.

Just because we were born here and have lived here our whole lives "ruled" by the government, doesn't mean we don't see it. Anyone who doesn't see it has their head buried in the sand or chooses to remain blissfully ignorant. It's historically obvious but shockingly blatant in the last 21 years. At the same time, just because you were NOT born here doesn't mean you can see it any clearer, I assure you. We've said this repeatedly, but keep getting it shoved into our faces as if you aren't listening. This has got to be at least the 50th time I've said it.

Whataboutism is not about treating people as you want to be treated. I'm not sure how you came to that definition but that leans more toward respect. Russia certainly isn't treating people how they want to be treated.

Whataboutism is changing of a subject to deflect from a current or related situation/accusation. But not only that, it's literally the reversal of an accusation.

If you accuse me of something and confront me with it and instead of refuting the accusation with the truth, admitting to it, or talking about it at all I immediately turn the tables and accuse you of something equally horrible or worse, so I don't have to. THAT is whataboutism.

Have you ever had a discussion with your wife or girlfriend where you voiced any concerns about something she did... and she turns the tables around on you to make you out to be the bad guy? Whataboutism happens in relationships all the time.

It's a form of manipulation in a conversation and it's been around forever and ever and used by many. For some it's consciously done, for others it's more of a reactive occurrence where they may not realize what exactly they're doing. When someone has no way to defend their actions (or someone else's they are aligned with) or simply wants to avoid doing so; they resort to whataboutism.

It's presently being used in the US political system between both parties like it's part of the job. A republican points out something a democrat did and instead of addressing the accusation the democrat responds by saying "well, you did x,y or z". Very unproductive behavior and now we have both parties so busy with pointing the finger at each other, fuck all gets resolved.

Whataboutism is not allowed in this section, specifically any thread related to the RU/UA war because it's been proven to completely derail the discussion of the war itself. I can't speak for everyone but personally, I do not need you or anyone pointing any egregious behavior of the country I was born and raised in; where I spent a majority of my life privy to such through my military and politically connected family.

If we were in a thread called "Hypocrisies and Fallacies of the US Government"... you and I would agree on many things.... perhaps even most things except that NONE of those things excuse or have direct bearing on what Russia is currently doing in Ukraine or to it's people.

That meme cracked me up

I didn’t mean you just made that word up. I was trying to say that you ( pro west group) mentioned that word first.

I understand now and understood before where are you coming from. But I’m talking about different prospective of this word. W/e, something I can’t describe properly I guess. But I know some other guys here perfectly understand what I’m trying to say.

[scorpion9]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

This is stupid

WHATABOUTISM suppose to teach you what’s good and what’s not and not like in your example - use it as a devil source of doing wrong or something It suppose to teach you simple things - Don’t do “this” to the kid if you don’t want to get the same response in return. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Etc

It’s not about US being evil so Russia can too. It’s about US done bad things, legitimated it through their control of western world/media, w/e and call it end of a day. Than judging other countries for practically the same thing, while playing saint.
It was never about WHATABOUTISM, really… you guys came up with this word. Im just trying to show how hypocrite US government is on international arena. Well and maybe some of you for buying that.

"It’s not about US being evil so Russia can too."
Thats exactly what it is about. Just look how Russians use whataboutism.

1) someone says that Russian civilian infrastructure bombing is evil and a war crime....which is true.

2) Russian deflects "What about US in Iraq, decades ago?

3) We are now talking about a completely different time period, different country and different war.

Deflection complete.
Russia may continue civilian bombing campaign because US was in a war decade ago.

"Than judging other countries for practically the same thing, while playing saint. "
US isn't playing a saint...and half of the population of US turned against the war in Iraq...and other wars. Same with Vietnam...public opposition was huge.
Secondly, its not US that is "judging Russian terror bombing".... it's Ukraine, Europe, and all the other countries who are doing the judging.

In reality, whataboutism is used as a "budget for evil" and its not just a word that was made up in this forum. Its an old word, used everywhere as an excuse to commit evil acts.
For example, I talked to a muslim about human rights issues in certain Sharia countries, and the reply I got was "well, what about Christianity....they killed so much more with their inquisitions, crusades etc. Christians subjugated women too...only a hundred years ago, women had no right to vote in the US and they had to serve their husbands. How can you criticize islam...if you yourself oppressed women too, and did horrible things in the name of YOUR religion. Now, you are saying that my religion can't do the same evil things?

This is the essence of whataboutism.

The proper response to whataboutism is
1) Group Y is committing horrible crimes
2) Groups A,B,C call them out and tells them to stop committing crimes
3) Group Y says: "What about Group B, they committed crimes too in their history...why cant we commit crimes now?"
4) You shouldn't commit crimes because we learned from the mistakes of Group B. We saw how horrible their war was, and how much destruction it caused. Let's not be that stupid to repeat their mistakes.

[Wailode]

Group A commits multiple crimes on B,C,D,E,F worldwide
and they call it "global security"
Group B defend itself againts these crimes and strikes back
Group A points on B defense and call it crime
Group B points on hypocrisy of group A and mention their crimes and reason why they act in defense
Group A call it "whataboutism" and get naive sense that debate is over.

This sums up hypocrisy of USA foreign and proxy wars.

Its more like whatabout-autism. No one is more blind in geopolitics then USA in current moment and time. That's why you got nickname: empire of lies. To preach about morality: first thing is to have morals and act accordingly.

Last 5 USA foreign wars were debacle and full of lies. Millions of victims, poor and divided countries. Why anyone have to believe this time its different ? People already know what they are after. Power, greed and money. Judge tree by its fruit..

[scorpion9]

Originally Posted by Wailode ↗

Group A commits multiple crimes on B,C,D,E,F worldwide
and they call it "global security"
Group B defend itself againts these crimes and strikes back
Group A points on B defense and call it crime
Group B points on hypocrisy of group A and mention their crimes and reason why they act in defense
Group A call it "whataboutism" and get naive sense that debate is over.

This sums up hypocrisy of USA foreign and proxy wars.

Its more like whatabout-autism. No one is more blind in geopolitics then USA in current moment and time. That's why you got nickname: empire of lies. To preach about morality: first thing is to have morals and act accordingly.

Last 5 USA foreign wars were debacle and full of lies. Millions of victims, poor and divided countries. Why anyone have to believe this time its different ? People already know what they are after. Power, greed and money. Judge tree by its fruit..

You can't even make a proper example :D

"Group B defend itself againts these crimes and strikes back"

Is group B supposed to be Russia? Poor poor Russia defending itself from NATO?

A correct example would be:
"Group A commits multiple crimes on B,C,D,E,F worldwide and they call it "global security"

Group X, who has no business with Group A, B, C, D E, F also wants to commit crimes so they say "whatabut group A who committed crimes against A,B,C? Why cant we commit crimes against groups Y and Z?
Group X also has a right to commit crimes against other groups.
Group X thinks that 2 evil acts will make 1 good act.

"That's why you got nickname: empire of lies"

Im not from US, im from the Baltics. We have a bloody history with Russia and I can say that in no way does US war in Iraq give Russia the right to invade Baltics for example. You would be the first one to excuse the Russian invasion into Baltics/Poland etc by saying...well, because US had wars in middle east, people in Baltics/Poland must die.

Lets suppose US vanished over night. Would Russian invasion become better? Would its civilian bombing campaigns become more moral? Nothing would change.
It would still be war...the invasion would still be wrong and stupid. Each war stands on its own.


"Why anyone have to believe this time its different ?"

Because this time, its not a war with US vs some other country. Its Ukraine VS Russia. Thats it.
I know you have lapped up russian propaganda and believe that "Russia is fighting all of NATO" and "There are barely any Ukrainians on the front lines", but thats just propaganda.
This war has nothing to do with the US....unless you are claiming that US forced Putins hand, and made him invade Ukraine in a full scale war? Is that what you believe? USA worked together with Putin to start the war, and then something went wrong, and Putin had a fallout with US government?
Only 1 person could have started this war....Putin.
Only 1 person can end this war....Putin.
This is Putin's personal war.

US role here is simply to provide support....which Ukraine asked for. The US isn't doing anything that isn't wanted or requested.

[Wailode]

If you are from baltics, then its even more sad. You should know better what is already going on. It's not just ukraine vs russia. If ukraine were alone in this, they would be already crushed. It's mostly nato vs russia.

Nato prepared ukraine many years for this conflict, they trained whole army and donated weapons for years.

Russia doesnt have any reason to invade baltics. They end in moldava borders as ukraine is historic part of soviet union and under their geopolitical influence. Trying to make ukraine part of nato was simply fatal mistake.

Same as what russians did in cuba. They had to leave.

Russians actually understand sphere of influence. But it seems that nato and usa doesnt. They interfere too much into foreign wars not even understanding what caused them.

[scorpion9]

Originally Posted by Wailode ↗

If you are from baltics, then its even more sad. You should know better what is already going on. It's not just ukraine vs russia. If ukraine were alone in this, they would be already crushed. It's mostly nato vs russia.

Nato prepared ukraine many years for this conflict, they trained whole army and donated weapons for years.

Russia doesnt have any reason to invade baltics. They end in moldava borders as ukraine is historic part of soviet union and under their geopolitical influence. Trying to make ukraine part of nato was simply fatal mistake.

Same as what russians did in cuba. They had to leave.

Russians actually understand sphere of influence. But it seems that nato and usa doesnt. They interfere too much into foreign wars not even understanding what caused them.

"You should know better what is already going on."

Yes, I know what's going on.
History is repeating itself. Russia is invading its neighbors and imposing its influence over people who don't want it.

"It's mostly nato vs russia."

No, if it were mostly NATO vs Russia, then Russia wouldn't look like Russia anymore. They would not have any electricity, water or heating. None. A war between NATO and Russia would be a world war.
The fact that NATO limits its weapons and requires Ukraine not to attack Russia says everything. They limit the range of the missiles. The fact that NATO hasn't closed the sky over Ukraine says everything. The only NATO troops in Ukraine are volunteers...off work, off pay. I know you love Russian propaganda... it's just so sweet and tempting...but it ain't real, and it won't become real, no matter how many times you repeat it.
This war is between Russia and Ukraine. Yes, the west supports Ukraine because Ukraine wants to align itself with the west. It makes sense.
The only problem here is that Russia doesn't respect the sovereignty of an independent country and demands that it remains under Russian influence.


"Russia doesn't have any reason to invade Baltics."

Conquest is reason enough. Why else have countries invaded everyone else throughout history?
In case of Russia...there may be some imperial geopolitical reasons as well:
Note: this video was uploaded before Ukraine was invaded. Quite prophetic :D