[duntez]

Originally Posted by scorpion9 ↗

Thanks for taking the time to give your point of view...even though i dont understand it in some ways.

"He gave freedom to former USSR countries, but not so much to his own people."
How so?
If anything, he gave more freedom to Russians than to the occupied territories. Russians were allowed to criticize the government to a degree...they were allowed some level of capitalism and were allowed to move more freely. He simply loosened up the iron grip that the government had on its people...everything else happened naturally.
I think one reason why you may have negative view on him is exactly what the guy in the video said....Putin and subsequent leaders did everything to undo his work and painted him as a traitor. If you were 7 years old at the time, then you cant really have much of personal experiences with him or his policies, nor with the Russian life before he took office. What you know about him and his policies are most certainly influenced by leaders that came after him.


"Gangs and mafia spread around the country, absolute poorness and economical collapse, depending on western countries ( kind of/ sort of being slaves)."
Same happened in Estonia, Baltics..Poland etc. I remember that time. We had maffia wars here too. Executions in the quarry...nightclubs had guards with semi-automatic rifles etc. But it changed quickly. Industry re-oriented itself. People learned to live in a capitalist society and year after year, life got better. At no point was anyone thinking that we are "slaves to the west". We were slaves during the soviet occupation...where we were literally told where to live, work and what to do. We worked almost entirely for food.

Russia failed not because of Gorbachov, but because of the leaders that came after him and started to shut the door again. China was a shithole before it opened itself up to the western investments and its economy exploded. I doubt Chineese who went from eating rats to owning businesses see themselves as western slaves.
This whole "evil west" is out to get us is a sign of Russian propaganda influence on you.


"But USSR could have a chance to live long if they chose different way and approach after WW2 yers"
This...i think is also fundamentaly wrong. The idea that USSR was a union is just wrong. The occupied territories would have been looking for a perfect moment for independence and struk at first chance they got. The reason why USSR had the "iron curtain" and why the berlin wall existed, wasnt to protect the people in USSR from dangers coming from the outside...it was meant to keep the people trapped inside. Unions like European Union and NATO are the kinds of unions that have the best chance of surviving and making thigs better. Unions where people join voluntarily...and actually make an effort to join.
"Unions" founded on violence and oppression will not stand for long.

Well, you asked why some Russians hate Gorbachev, I tried to explain based on what I herd, read/ watched in documentaries… people would say staff like “sold country for “Bush drumsticks”, “destroyed a country we were proud of etc… I guess staff like that was coming from prosoviets, like my grandparents for example. And I’m not one of them, so if anything, I can agree that Russian people deff got its freedom with Gorbachev.

Let me ask you, do you know how much Estonia gets from EU bank every year?
Who came after is important too. Would you believe me that people of Russia or Ukraine live much better now ( Or at least 8 years ago) than during 90s? Or you think it’s the same? And while I do acknowledge that Russia could be doing even better if political values, laws and everything was just like in the west, I also understand that it’s a “could of, would of” kind of thing. We don’t know for sure how it would play out.

Maybe you are right about this one. You probably older than me and remember USSR as an adult… I don’t, but I always herd how people were bond and friendly one to another (I mean people from different republics). If it wasnt like that according to you, well I guess I’ve always met people who thought otherwise. While they knew there were people who hated USSR, they would always say that majority didn’t.

[WonderMomma]

"A Ukrainian soldiers liberates his home village from the Russian Army and is met by his younger brothers crying out of joy.

What a video…"

[scorpion9]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

Well, you asked why some Russians hate Gorbachev, I tried to explain based on what I herd, read/ watched in documentaries… people would say staff like “sold country for “Bush drumsticks”, “destroyed a country we were proud of etc… I guess staff like that was coming from prosoviets, like my grandparents for example. And I’m not one of them, so if anything, I can agree that Russian people deff got its freedom with Gorbachev.

Let me ask you, do you know how much Estonia gets from EU bank every year?
Who came after is important too. Would you believe me that people of Russia or Ukraine live much better now ( Or at least 8 years ago) than during 90s? Or you think it’s the same? And while I do acknowledge that Russia could be doing even better if political values, laws and everything was just like in the west, I also understand that it’s a “could of, would of” kind of thing. We don’t know for sure how it would play out.

Maybe you are right about this one. You probably older than me and remember USSR as an adult… I don’t, but I always herd how people were bond and friendly one to another (I mean people from different republics). If it wasnt like that according to you, well I guess I’ve always met people who thought otherwise. While they knew there were people who hated USSR, they would always say that majority didn’t.

"Let me ask you, do you know how much Estonia gets from EU bank every year?"

Estonia gets a lot more from the EU than it gives.
The same goes for all the new members of the EU.
Thats why the standard of living has gone up in all of the countries that have joined the EU.

"Would you believe me that people of Russia or Ukraine live much better now ( Or at least 8 years ago) than during 90s?"

Of course. That goes without saying. Russia during the 90s was in chaos, just like Estonia and all other former soviet countries. Its capitalist economy was in baby shoes at that time.


"And while I do acknowledge that Russia could be doing even better if political values"

In my opinion, Russia would have done massively better if Putin and other "pro-oligarch" leaders hadn't come to power. Russia would have been the greatest economy in Europe with its near-infinite natural resources and human capital.


"...but I always heard how people were bonded and friendly one to another (I mean people from different republics)."

They still do.
One of the biggest problems with remembering the past is a natural bias towards our youth.
People remember the past to be better than it was, because that's when they were young.
Would you rather be a lonely old man with health problems in a wealthy country or a young healthy man in a poor country? Most people will remember their youth better than it actually was. My father is a good example of that. As I have mentioned here before...when he was young, he made $200 a month. It wasn't enough to pay for the monthly bills, so we were always in debt to someone. Nowdays, after joining the EU, he often complains that "money doesn't have the value that it used to" and "how much less you can buy now" compared to the soviet times.
Every time he says that, I have to remind him how crazy that sounds. He can literally pay all the bills, buy a months worth of food and buy a new phone and a tv with each payday. Every month...he could buy new home electronics...like a fridge, a microwave...a washing machine etc.
During the Soviet times, monthly salary didn't even buy a month's worth of food. In our village, we were the first ones to own a game console. It cost us all of our livestock :D ...we literally sold all of our pigs to get a game console and a tv. And again, now, we could buy a console and a tv every single month and have money left over. And yet...he still thinks that the soviet times were better and that money bought more than it does now. I understand why. He was young. It paints everything in positive colors.

[Roosta]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

I thought I would listen to it while driving and looked at the phone while at the stop Light. Gorbachev translation was wrong, he didn’t say “damn it” … so I was like “ ok, I’ll better watch it”


EDIT:
So I've watched it. Weird there was no translation of him talking later on after that "damn it".
I personally dont hate him nor I admire him. People of my generation used to make fun out of Elcin...when Gorbachov was just a history to us, I was like 5-7 year old and didn't give a damn about what was going on. At the same time I do believe he wanted to do better for his country and for that I appreciate his efforts. But if we put feelings aside and think political aspect only thats where if not many, but a lot of people start having questions. He gave freedom to former USSR countries, but not so much to his own people. Gangs and mafia spread around the country, absolute poorness and economical collapse, depending on western countries ( kind of/ sort of being slaves)... I would think people think about it like USSR aka Russia tried to equally spread technology and work among other countries, bright example of it would be Ukrainian plane "Dream" ( Mriya)...while Ukrainians claim it was Ukrainian built plane, the reality is almost all USSR countries were involved in it..wings from Uzbekistan ( if im not mistaken), avionics from Moscow etc...and assembled in Ukraine. Mongolia after USSR broke up, still using USSR railroad wagons and trains...they even have to learn some Russian language in order to operate old as hell equipment. (forgot to mention, Mongolia wasn't USSR, I just gave as an example) Universities, factories were built and so on. So people who hate him probably thinking that he is a traitor, because Russia gave so much and in the end lost it all...for Russia if was a big expense, but for the former USSR countries if was never enough ( not joking here, rather stating economy fact), all those money could be used for internal interests of Russia..than Russia was suppose to pay all USSR foreign debt. Also people thinking that this was geopolitical chaos...former USSR countries got their independence and in order to build their economy some started to look west ...trying to get that long dollar...Russia with its bad economy obviously wasn't interesting and thats when west could use this platform to push Russia to the limits as it start having problems and issues with former USSR countries along its borders. All of that to me make sense too. But USSR could have a chance to live long if they chose different way and approach after WW2 yers. Instead of going into the Cold War with US and spending billions on army and weapons, USSR should have concentrated on economy, industry, technology and people alone. Just like Germany did. All this proxy wars and bases around the world... fighting for prestige. China is great example where Russia could of been if she played her cards right.

She's having another rant ! Seems to be a daily event rather than monthly !

[duntez]

Like I once said “ every once in a while I meet Americans like that”

[Faust]

Oliver Stone had an excellent interview with Lex Fridman on Lex his podcast. You can really tell Oliver Stone loves his country a lot but at the same time he values the truth over foreign policy. He was a vet in Vietnam and I truly believe he should one day be president. I’ll post the interview later but he has some great critical views about both Russia as well as Ukraine and what went down

[Rfneimad]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

Oliver Stone had an excellent interview with Lex Fridman on Lex his podcast. You can really tell Oliver Stone loves his country a lot but at the same time he values the truth over foreign policy. He was a vet in Vietnam and I truly believe he should one day be president. I’ll post the interview later but he has some great critical views about both Russia as well as Ukraine and what went down

This is absolutely retarded

[v1r]

"The rules of life in war."

Russian military manual.
Translated and original.

[richy_dong]

Love watching the Russians getting fked up . Poo tin can't be happy with the way things are going

[duntez]

Originally Posted by Roosta ↗

WOW, Such words from the most intelligent pop off machine that openly supports the invading russian army or is it the USSR that he supports or both. My guess is he doesn't even know as he's well known to be a lame individual with no moral or ethical compas & will say anything to protect his ass at any cost which brings me to reiterate the fact that when I suggested he & Faust get a room, I did mean a private one rather than a tent that we saw a video of.
Keep waving the Ruskie Flag high above your house as your not making any friends here !
Eat some Defeat

You are so dumb, that can’t even insult properly shit is just falling out of your mouth randomly, bypassing your missing brain