[Vincentsdream]

"Free Will"

[scorpion9]

Originally Posted by marekparek ↗

Russian sourced :

In Anapa, the game streamer said that he would not go to die in the war for Russia, but for America he would not mind, and also said nasty things about our soldiers.

After a while, our security forces came to visit him at home, the streamer was fined, and then he was invited to the military registration and enlistment office, where he, of his own free will, signed a contract with the Russian Defense Ministry and will soon go to the Northern Military District

I occasionally play competitive online games and i've ran into guys like this too. It seems like a lot of the younger people who are gaming online hate putin and their government.

[SDI]

Originally Posted by Roosta ↗

Better than being thrown out of a window I suppose.

Or "committing suicide".

[duntez]

Meanwhile in Poland. OP - “Not our war” “ stop sending weapons to UA”

[duntez]

A couple of days ago was a 10 years anniversary since Odessa tragedy ( over 40 dead) when UA people peacefully stood up against new illegal government of UA and got burned alive by UA ultras and pro-NAZIs.

Fucker in this 10 years old video advising/demanding people in balaclavas “ to kill them all” “ and so no one saw our faces” I bet ya he never took responsibility for this, nor anyone of this fuckers

[Vincentsdream]

You left out the part where the pro Russians were armed and attacking people. throwing fire bombs and shit.

[duntez]

Originally Posted by Vincentsdream ↗

You left out the part where the pro Russians were armed and attacking people. throwing fire bombs and shit.

Show me where those protesters from “house of Profsouz” were doing that.

[kellyhound]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

A couple of days ago was a 10 years anniversary since Odessa tragedy (over 40 dead) when UA people peacefully stood up against new illegal government of UA and got burned alive by UA ultras and pro-NAZIs.

Most of the Russian media reports concentrate only on the fire, or if they do mention the earlier disturbances, blame them on Right Sector ‘radicals’ and right-wing football fans from the pro-unity camp.

The May 2 Group has prepared a chronology of events earlier in the day which shows that the situation was more complex.

The first of the six people who died (all of gunshot wounds) before the fire was a pro-unity activist, however there were victims on both sides.

Although the original trouble was caused by a particular crowd of pro-federalist activists, people from both sides undoubtedly played an active part in the disturbances and some committed serious crimes.

The Odessa ‘massacre’ narrative claims that:

- Pro-federalism activists fled into the Trade Union building to escape from an enraged crowd of pro-unity ‘radicals’ who were burning their tents;

- The Trade Union building was deliberately set alight;

- People were killed by these ‘radicals’ either in the Trade Union building or when they managed to escape from it;

- No mention is normally made of the 40 minute delay before the fire brigade, located very close by arrived.

The narrative is in direct conflict with the facts.

1. According to Vladislav Balinsky from the May 2 Group, the evidence indicates that that some of the pro-federalism activists had prepared well in advance to barricade themselves in and defend the Trade Union building.

2. The police for some reason showed no wish to protect people on Kulikovo Pole by either organizing a guard on the perimeter or evacuation despite the approach of pro-unity activists who did not conceal their intention to dismantle the tent camp.

3. Barricades had been set up several hours earlier, with a large amount of inflammatory liquids (for Molotov cocktails), places for sleeping, first aid points all prepared. The first photo here shows people calmly moving into the building. .

4. Despite the obvious danger, “certain leaders of the Kulikovo Pole protest (Albu, Artem Davydenko and others) used deception or open calls to entice around 380 people into the building.

There were calls to people from the very first clashes, with people being told, for example, that they were gathering medical and other aid.

According to witnesses, some of the people at the last stop of Tram No 18 were openly tricked. They were told that there was a bomb in the tram, and that they should hide in the Trade Union building.

This meant that a small group of around 50 turned into a crowd of around 400 people in the building.

5. The crowd coming to attack Kulikovo Pole were met with shots from firearms, flares and Molotov cocktails from the sources of fire in the Trade Union building, including from the roof.

The pro-unity activists did not know that there were other, unarmed, people in the building and responded with aggressive acts of their own. This led first to the barricades at the entrance going up in flames and then to the fire inside the Trade Union building.

There are grounds for assuming that some of the tents outside went up in flames because of flares or Molotov cocktails being hurled from the roof (there does not appear to be evidence of these being hurled from within the building)

At 2.16 on the video one can see a flare hitting a tent

In the first minute or so of the tape here, activists are clearly hurling Molotov cocktails, at least one of which appears to hit a tent

From 1.50 at the video here shots are being fired and the young men below begin running, shouting angrily, "what the hell are you doing?!"



At 0.44 in the video here, the person on the left by the window is holding a gun, and as the video ends a shot can be heard.



At 1.50 onwards in the video below the person speaking explains and points to the bullet shots through the window pane that prove that this window was used to shoot at people from. It was an ideal location, he says, as the people below could not see where the shots were coming from.



From 5.10 to 7.50 in the video here, you can see that a lot of Molotov cocktails were thrown



On the roof’s gutters a large number of 7.62 and 5.56 calibre bullets were found.

6. The action by certain pro-federalism activists in defending the Trade Union building, including with the use of firearms:

- prevented them from escaping to a safe part of the building;

- obstructed efforts to rescue other needing help by pro-unity activists outside, and – officially – by the emergency services.

This is also confirmed by direct and indirect evidence: photos and video footage; the forensic assessments of cause of death; the thermo-dynamic model of the given fire; testimony of witnesses and participants, as well as the official report from Volodymyr Bodelan on how the fire was extinguished.

7. The actions by EuroMaidan activists and ultras [football fans] in getting into the Trade Union building (from the left wing entrance), including with the use of shock pistols and pneumatic weapons resulted in the pro-federalism activists not being able to use the left wing for evacuation and gathering in the central and right-hand parts of the building. The central exit was also blocked by flames.

According to Group May 2’s information, these aggressive pro-unity groups had firearms, but no evidence that it was used has been found (no marks from bullets; victims; videos showing the weapons being used. There is, however, reliable information indicating that one member of a ‘self-defence’ unit [sotnya] named only as Mykola. used a shock pistol. There is also evidence, and testimony from the victim, that a revolver with a Flaubert shot system was aimed at one of the windows of the Green Drama Hall.

At 6.29 of the video below, Mykola can be seen shooting at a window (probably the corridor of the fourth floor, second from the corner)



8. The complicated layout of the building, the barricades, the passage ways blocked by railing, the closed exit to the roof; intense smoke; and poor lighting also impeded people from moving to a safe part of the building in time. This conclusion is based on photographic and video footage; witnesses’ testimony; where the bodies were found; the map showing the areas most affected by smoke; a study of the plan of the building as of May 4 and its technical documentation from 1997; and others.

9. The large amount of combustible materials (including explosive substances) in the barricades in the ground floor foyer by the entrance ensured that it would go up in flames quickly and that the fire should spread. This also resulted in a high temperature of up to 800 degrees and intense smoke in the central wing corridors.

10. Balinsky writes that his conclusions regarding the speed with which the flames spread, etc., are based on the expert assessment of the parts of the building affected by fire; the combustibility of the materials and surfaces; temperature indicators; the map of areas affected by smoke; the thermodynamic model of the fire and the aerodynamic specific features of the building, with these in relation to the position of the bodies; the official conclusions regarding cause of death; the photographic and video footage, witness accounts, etc.,

He writes that a specific feature of this fire was how swiftly its second phase developed. This meant that the pro-federalism activists who for a number of reasons (see items 6 and 8 above) were concentrated in a particular area during the first phase of the fire suddenly found themselves in the very epicentre of the fire with a temperature of around 700 degrees Celsius.

They died from the flames, or because they jumped trying to escape them.

11. The serious time gap before the fire-fighters arrived and began extinguishing the heart of the fire in the foyer led unforeseeably and rapidly to the walls of the central staircase landing going up in flames with this causing the death of most of the people.

In ending, Vladislav Balinsky expresses his sympathy for the families of those who died.

The claims that the ‘radicals’ killed those who managed to escape the fire is not borne out by the video footage, nor by witnesses, such as Serhiy Dibrov, coordinator of the Group, and himself streaming footage of the events for some 7 hours.

The Group has so far established only one case where a person injured after jumping was attacked by a man who in a few seconds dealt the injured man two or three blows.

There were also cases, Dibrov reports, of rough treatment of people who managed to get out of the building themselves. He is not aware of any case involving life-threatening violence.

Without any suggestion that such behaviour was justified, it is nonetheless worth noting that those Russian media and organizations pushing the line that these were murdered victims of ‘radicals’ who demonstrated the “true face of fascism” either avoid or totally lie about:

- the fact that the first victims were pro-unity demonstrators whose peaceful demonstration was attacked;

- the fact that there were people shooting from the building and throwing Molotov cocktails;

- the considerable evidence that desperate attempts were made to save those trapped before the fire-fighters finally appeared.

Such evidence is found in Dibrov’s footage here

From around 2.0 on the video you see attempts to help people on window ledges (three at one, two at another) first by throwing a rope, then with a person actually getting up as far as the ladder will reach to get the rope to them. People call to them, saying “Don’t jump” (the distance being far too great).

At around 4.30 Dibrov explains that thus far the attempts have failed, and mentions with frustration that the fire service has still not arrived although they’re located just around the corner.

At around 6.08 there is an exchange between two people, where one says: “But they’re people!”; the other “so what?” , and the first responds: “games are games, but shit, nobody wants people to die”.

Whether some disagreed or were simply thoughtless is hard to say, but certainly despite the fire raging, and the fact that people were stuck, you can see a couple of Molotov cocktails still being thrown. (around 7.00 , just after Dibrov says that the storming of the building has gradually turned into an operation to save those stuck.

At 9.07 there is great applause from below as they finally succeed in getting a rope to two people on the window ledge.

On the other hand, as Dibrov points out (around 9.40) while efforts are underway to rescue people others are continuing to throw stones and burning things from the roof of the building.

At 11.00 a young man with a red jacket flings a Molotov cocktail at the part of the building where the rescue attempt is just beginning. There is outrage from people around who scream at him angrily (and as Dibrov tells his viewers a little later, came close to beating him up).

Just after 13.00 there is again applause, this time because some of the pro-unity activists have managed to find some scaffolding which they drag up to the building to help with the rescue.

One young man then climbs onto the scaffolding and after a couple of attempts manages to throw the rope high enough for the people a floor above to catch. It is only as this operation is underway that a fire engine finally turns up. Dibrov expresses the hope that they won’t be forced to leave by the Molotov cocktails being thrown from the roof. The cheers and chanting “Ukraina!” begin as the first people are saved.

Worth noting that Dibrov, streaming throughout the events, even at this stage is still repeating the hope that all is now well and that there will have been no casualties. The number of people in the building and the scale of the disaster was simply unknown.

27.00 last people being evacuated to cheers from those outside

Dibrov consistently talks of ‘opponents’ and they remain such to the end. He mentions around this time that a corridor is being created to enable the pro-federalism activists to leave the area safely. With cause, as one person lunges at them.

Here and in another video, taken even later, those attacked are in good form after being saved from the building, and there is no suggestion of anybody trying to kill them. Others around also tell those behaving aggressively to stop.

There is plenty of video footage and more examples can be provided – of inadequate behaviour by a few, of real bravery, also from a few. Of normal human behaviour where people’s lives are in danger from a much greater number. .

There remain multiple questions, not least over the reprehensible delay in getting fire engines to the scene of a massive fire

Other source:

Sergei is a fan of the Odessa Soccer team, and the fan club was definitely upset by the shooting of the students in Kyiv.

Earlier on that day, he and his soccer fan mates took part in the pro maidan protest on Derybasivska street (Ukrainian transliteration).

Some people near him were shot by a pro-Russian sniper on the top of the Alfina shopping centre building - a shopping centre I have visited often - and I always associate it, unfortunately, with its role on that day. The police did nothing about the shots, despite many people seeing the sniper. As I recall there were several wounded and two killed.

Prior to this, pro-Russian activists had occupied the trades hall building in the Kulykove Pole - a park beside the main railway station.

Later that day, Sergei and some friends arrived at the Trades Hall building.

The police had been keeping the maidan protesters away from the building. The pro-Russian activists had barricaded themselves into the building.

By the time, Sergei arrived, the police had withdrawn.

Shortly after the police left, the pro-Russian activists started throwing Molotov cocktails down onto the Maidan protesters. One crashed onto a young woman close to Sergei.

Sergei and a friend used their jackets to put out the flames on this unfortunate young woman - Sergei got burnt. Some others took her away for medical assistance. She was screaming in agony.

Some of the Molotov cocktails did not break when they hit people.

Sergei did not see any being thrown back, but he did see where some had landed against the front of barricade on the front door.

The Molotov cocktail preparation area was in the foyer, just behind that barricade.

Whether or not it was a Molotov cocktail being thrown back, or a cocktail accident, the foyer erupted in flames.

The activists behind the barricade were able to get away from the fire. The others had to either jump from windows, onto concrete, or face the fires in the stairways.

There was, despite all the Russian propaganda, no attempt to block the pro-Russian activists from leaving the building. The maidan protesters wanted the pro-Russians to get out of the building - the pro-Russian activists were intending to stay.

The people who were seriously harmed or killed were either:
- the maidan protesters damaged by projectiles thrown from the upper floors and/or Molotov cocktails thrown from these upper stories, or from the barricade at the the front door, or,
- the pro Russian activists jumping from upper stories onto concrete, or those that suffered from smoke inhalation or flames.

The fire department arrived, but not before many died or were seriously harmed.

No one in Odessa, irregardless of whether they supported the Maidan or not, has anything but regret for that day. Most Odessans blame the police for leaving, because the Molotov cocktail throwing only started after that.

In 2019, when I was last in Odessa, there were many, many, memorials on the metal barricade in front of the building, and fresh flowers. And when I stopped there for my 1-minute of silence, several others came along, and left flowers, or stopped for reflection as well.

The irony is that the metal barricades are there now, to keep people away from the building, and yet the police could have called for such barricades on the day. Instead, they simply left.

Little wonder that in 2015, a total new police force was created in Ukraine.

Another source:

On 2 May 2014, around 300 well-organised ‘pro-federalism’ supporters attacked a march of about 2,000 ‘pro-unity’ protesters, including local residents and a large number of football fans known for their strong ’pro-unity’ position, who had arrived from Kharkiv for the football game that was taking place later that day. Clashes between the two groups broke out in the city centre, lasting several hours. Both groups used firearms, resulting in six people being shot and killed (four on the ‘pro-federalism’ side, and two on ‘pro-unity’ side). We were present on the scene and witnessed how the ‘pro-federalism’ groups began throwing stones and Molotov cocktails at the participants of the unity march. The situation spiralled out of control as the police failed to respond effectively to violence from both sides, even though they had been warned in advance of the high possibility of violence.

The presence of ‘pro-unity’ groups was overpowering in numbers and forced the ‘pro-federalism’ groups to scatter: some sought refuge at the top of a shopping centre close to where the clashes were taking place, others ran to a camp they had set up at Kulykove Pole square.

While a large group of ‘pro-unity’ supporters marched towards Kulykove Pole, openly demonstrating their aggressive attitude, the police failed to respond, neither restraining the aggressive crowd nor securing the square.

When they arrived, the ‘pro-unity’ individuals destroyed the camp and the ‘pro-federalism’ supporters barricaded themselves in the House of Trade Unions.

Mission’s staff saw both sides throwing stones and Molotov cocktails and heard the sounds of gunshots coming from both sides, and then saw the House of Trade Unions on fire.

Firefighters from the State Emergency Service (SES) responded with significant delay to numerous emergency calls made by eyewitnesses, including one of our colleagues.

By the time they arrived, some forty-five minutes after the first call, forty-two people had lost their lives (34 men, 7 women and a boy). In the absence of the emergency services, we observed some ‘pro-unity’ supporters assisting their trapped opponents to leave the burning building. However, some of those saved from the building were then heavily beaten by the crowd.

What is the outcome and the present status of the investigations?

Only one person has been charged with murder. This member of a ‘pro-unity’ group is accused of firing a lethal shot that killed a member of the ‘pro-federalism’ groups during the clashes in the city centre.

The alleged shooter was identified quickly and arrested on 18 May 2014, however the case has seen little progress, with multiple recusals of judges, disruption of hearings by the defendant’s supporters, and 18 months lost as the prosecution revised the charges.

Over the last two years, systemic problems in the judiciary, including the lack of judges and underfunding of courts, as well as COVID-19-related restrictions, have further slowed the trial.

The police have not identified those responsible for the killings of the other five men during the clashes in the city centre.

Instead of focusing on identifying the perpetrators of the murders, the police concentrated its efforts on investigating and prosecuting ‘pro-federalism’ supporters for their participation in clashes.

The most notable criminal case, highlighting the partiality and bias of the investigation and prosecution, is the case against 19 alleged ‘pro-federalism’ supporters charged with participating in the unrest in the city centre. In September 2017, the court acquitted the 19 men accused, stressing the ineffective investigation and the biased and politically-motivated prosecution of the alleged ‘pro-federalism’ supporters.

Recently, Mykolaiv Court of Appeal considering the prosecution appeal on the verdict has placed the case on hold, while they look for some of defendants who have systematically failed to appear for hearings.

In relation to the fire in the House of Trade Unions, while there were investigations into who started the fires, there were no results and no charges have been laid against the supporters of either group.

Instead, the investigation focused on the role of the police in ensuring the safety of people and preventing violence (which started in the city centre), and on the role of the SES officers and officials, who failed to adequately react to emergency calls and deploy firefighters to the scene.

None of the court proceedings regarding the role of police or SES officials have been completed. The COVID-19-related slowdown of trials has contributed to further protracting these proceedings.

[duntez]

? Just a bias view on what happened. Where are the proofs, Kelly? Some videos were removed by YouTube it says.

[scorpion9]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

? Just a bias view on what happened. Where are the proofs, Kelly? Some videos were removed by YouTube it says.

Just curious, do you think that the Russian narrative isn't biased? Given that their entire intent at the time was to cause unrest and blame Ukrainians?
Keep in mind that Russia is ruled by a KGB agent, who is specialized in propaganda and misinformation. I'm not saying that you are biased, but, i'm asking, do you think you yourself are unbiased, when you pick and chose what videos to watch.
In the videos, K.H provided, you can see that there are molotov coctails on the "defending" side. One can only assume that the building was full of petrol canisters for making more molotovs. That could cause a massive fire if lets say a 50 liter petrol canister caught fire.