[duntez]

Originally Posted by WonderMomma ↗

Well point me to a credible wiki for your arguments and I'll be happy to drag an eyeball over it.

And I get it and understand. I know that some Ukrainians have made plenty of mistakes and done some horrible things in regard to all this... but they're not over in Russia doing these things on someone else's territory. There are people they are defending their land against who want to take it. It sucks that there are innocent civilians dying and suffering for what both countries are doing on both sides.

I also fully acknowledge that as someone who has never lived or experienced life in either country, I am naturally ignorant to many things that have happened. Perhaps I couldn't possibly know everything... but I can only work with the information that is available to me. I do try very hard to weed out the bullshit... it gets very difficult and I start to question why I am even putting myself through all the concern and emotions of giving a shit about any of it. But I do care. I care about the humans on both sides caught in the middle.

Having said that, the only key point for me is that the soil that all of this is going on is Ukrainian. Perhaps Russia should have thought of their ethnic Russian population in Crimea BEFORE giving it to Ukraine in the 50's, or whenever it was. But that is the end all, be all bottom line for me. Especially knowing the motives of the Russian Federation as previously mentioned.

Hypothetically, if a bunch of Canadians who had immigrated to the US or were born or raised here through immigrants for generations wanted to take over, run, and change the laws of part of the United States as their own, effectively making those regions a part of Canada, that wouldn't fly over here either. I would feel the same if the roles were reversed.

OK... so let's hug it out. Or we could have a dance off.

Well, when I said "pro-western wiki" I meant English version of it, that's all my bad!

You are probably the only one that I know here from anti Russia group who's at least trying to understand and not judging the whole nation by the stories of grandparents, parents, TV or locally based internet sites and media or government. Stephen800 looks like interested to get down of this shit too So even if your position about this conflict since 2014 ( not war since feb) stays the same, Im still thankful for your time and efforts to try and see this conflict with the eyes of people on another side. Ur deff hug deserving material

Back to the lambs lol Ur saying as if Ukraine was an independent state back then. It wasn't. we were one USSR country and that move was made for economical reasons. Would it be better if Florida Keys with Key Largo was under North Carolina jurisdiction or Florida? The answer is obvious IMO.

IMO your example with Canada is wrong. Here is another one. Remember when Trumps people went to the Washington DC and stormed governmental buildings? Imagine if they pulled it off and Republicans took power this way. With full support of a country which is thousands miles away. Do you think there would be no states in US who would not accept this government and didn't stand up? When constitution is broke, states and regions have a full right to deny this government and separate themselves from this. New government in DC would call those states separatists and all the EU media and Russia would fully support new government. Canada would support separatists states and eventually after thousand death of people would send their Army to protect those states who asked them for help.

[duntez]

Originally Posted by WonderMomma ↗

You know it just dawned on me... I am constantly questioning myself. Perhaps I am choosing to go with the lesser of two evils... or perhaps I am holding past transgressions against Russia. I group up in the 70's and 80's. The 80's especially were a scary time in the US as a kid. Russia was our enemy, according to our government. The movie Red Dawn... even that one Lethal Weapon with the Russian Diplomats "Diplomatic Immunity!" POW... "Well it's just been revoked". Also Rocky 4 with Drago He was SO attractive but I didn't like him.
"I will BREAK YOU"


Such powerful memories (thanks Hollywood ).

But then the cold war ended, the Berlin wall went down, I met Gorbachev and all those inner tensions seemed to go away. lol

Even in the mid 90's when I began my corporate career... my work was all international. My first corporate job was at a government contractor and our "partners" were all Russian and Lithuanian. Very nice people.

Could I still be influenced by that stuff? lol I'm intelligent and rational enough now to know that Russians are not bad people... but we were told something very different as kids. This whole thing was quite traumatizing as a child. I also wonder if this life experience is why I'm so addicted to playing COD Cold War. The more I don't "understand" something, the deeper the dive I go.

Its funny, because I wanted to tell you the same thing last night. I have a feeling that you trying to understand this conflict while having a chip on your shoulder about Russia. Because of war or your personal memories from way back. Its like when you have a one strong believe about something its really hard to break it even with concrete strong facts. Thats what could potentially push you into spending your free time and read about this, just so you were able to proof your point. I don't blame you, this is psychology, most of us do the same.

[Faust]

Btw something to consider.
The western view is:
“Russia wants to take over Europe which is why we need even more Nato”

But I don’t think the EU leaders even believe that; otherwise they would not deplete their own weapon stockpiles, gifting them to Ukraine. Anyway, I hope it’s not civil war in Europe. 5 euro a liter gasoline and 800 euro gas bills during the winter for poor people will cause a lot of shit. People won’t buy the politicians “just get into some debts lol, it’s for the greater good folks. ” much longer

[duntez]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

Btw something to consider.
The western view is:
“Russia wants to take over Europe which is why we need even more Nato”

But I don’t think the EU leaders even believe that; otherwise they would not deplete their own weapon stockpiles, gifting them to Ukraine. Anyway, I hope it’s not civil war in Europe. 5 euro a liter gasoline and 800 euro gas bills during the winter for poor people will cause a lot of shit. People won’t buy the politicians “just get into some debts lol, it’s for the greater good folks. ” much longer

Speaking of which. I’ve posted about Czhech republic now France, Germany, Netherlands. Italy too. England is struggling too.
“Winter is coming”

[WonderMomma]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

“Winter is coming”

[duntez]

Originally Posted by WonderMomma ↗

John Snow would end this war like there is no tomorrow

[WonderMomma]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

“Russia wants to take over Europe which is why we need even more Nato”

I am not someone who thinks we need more globally based power anywhere. Truth be told... the whole global power, world dominance, government anything is like nails on chalkboard for me. lol I know we need centralized power, allies, and world collaboration... I just don't think the current state of all of the above has anything to do with what's best for the general population of the world.

I recently started joking with my partner... every TV commercial about prescription drugs, every lawyer advertisement commercial, kids commercials with toys how they make them look so fun to play with, and just about every other commercial known to man... I just started saying "It's all a racket!" as in "racketeering". Its actually all true. It's really fucked up how much of it there is in the world. Everything is a scheme... a plan... a racket. Nothing is what they are saying it is. It's actually quite scary how bad it is.

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

Its funny, because I wanted to tell you the same thing last night. I have a feeling that you trying to understand this conflict while having a chip on your shoulder about Russia. Because of war or your personal memories from way back. Its like when you have a one strong believe about something its really hard to break it even with concrete strong facts. Thats what could potentially push you into spending your free time and read about this, just so you were able to proof your point. I don't blame you, this is physiology, most of us do the same.

It could very well be the reason I am as involved in it as I am. I've been paying attention to it for a long time, with breaks here and there. But it's been every day for the last 6 months. But I think the way I grew up is part of the reason I am so fearful of being ignorant, unaware, and unconscious as an adult. I get a bit obsessive about the need to know things from every angle I can.

Having said that, I paid a lot of attention to Iraq/Afghanistan too... but a lot of that was due to researching starting a non profit for veterans. I will say though, my skepticism of the political system in this country and around the world really started to take hold during this time and it completely changed my life. I don't quite feel like such a sheep. lol There was a lot of underhanded bullshit that was going on regarding those conflicts that was just fucking shocking.

BUT ANYWAY... (trying to keep this short story length, no novels! )

Also, if I am told something is not good for me, I'm usually more intrigued by it. lol how fucked up is that? But I was raised in an environment where we were told certain things, certain people are not good (we all are taught that to a degree). I didn't know any better but it never did sit well with me.

I'll never forget the one and only time I heard a family member say the N word. Oddly enough it was the end scene of Rocky where he beats Apollo Creed. I was 9 or 10 years old and I cried when I heard this person say it. I knew it was bad and I didn't understand why this person was saying it. I can't recall the conversation after I started balling but I never heard this person say it again. But that had a profound impact on me.

As soon as I had the capacity to think for myself I starting figuring shit out for myself and quickly discovered nothing is quite what they say it is. They being politicians, teachers, parents. It was like learning about life for the first time all over again, except this time I could better process things.

Whatever the case may be, I'm thankful I have the ability to swallow my pride, acknowledge my ignorance in some things, and try to learn as much as I can.

[WonderMomma]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

John Snow would end this war like there is no tomorrow

On that, we can definitely agree.

Oh John Snow, where for art thou?

[Faust]

Originally Posted by WonderMomma ↗

On that, we can definitely agree.

Oh John Snow, where for art thou?

He would hook up with Putin, who a few episodes later turns out to be his half-brother?

[Stefan800]

Yes, Duntez, i want look at both sides. Everytime when i have an opinion, i try to check the other side. I think, i am very good informed about this conflict, but i have to say, some things you, and two banned guys told me, were new to me, like the odessa massacre or the things in the videos you posted for me. And i cant blame the media, we had news about them, it is just the brain cant take all informations and when that things happened 2014 and 15, i missed that things. But, and it is sad to say, the world will never be the same after the invasion and lots of europians will hate russia for a long time. Not russians, i think, lots can diver between the state and the people. I am crying sometimes when i see the whole destruction and suffering and it is hard to believe the south-east Ukrainians want that. So i still hate that megalomaniac man in the kremlin.