[duntez]

Originally Posted by jkesil ↗

You’re actually posting anti-russkie posts here. 30 percent of them about shelling Ukrainian civillians. Proud of it?

Ukraine was shelling civilians since 2014, I bet that something your country proud of.

[duntez]

This is what I was talking about.

[Stefan800]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

WonderMomma
Gosh so hard to find the lines to quote in your novel
So, new parliament put Turchinov as president until the first election. That blood thirsty, south/eastern Ukraine hater sent a damn army to deal with those who didn’t recognize their power. Didn’t go there himself nor didn’t even try to send a group of representatives to talk the the people of Donbas, to hear them out to make some promises to keep to each other, no. He just like those in power and oh gosh especially those who were on TV proclaimed them separatists and terrorists. But even before he sent an army, private national batallions were formed and sent to deal with Donbas. Such as Tornado ( just read about them, I’m sure you will be surprised what they were doing to the people of Donbas), Aydar, AZOV, Dnepr 1 and so on. When Ukr tanks came to Donbas, people were stopping tanks by hands. There are videos on YouTube even. And only after first shells and dead civilians they took weapons. Russian regular army never crossed the border until 2022. You can go through all the pages of OBSE and I guarantee you you will not find a single fact proving me wrong. Russia were helping yes, just like west was helping Kiev, but didn’t cross the border. BTW now all famous city Mariupol didn’t recognize new Kyev government too and even local police stood with the people. AZOV came over, Incircled police department and opened fire with rifles, BTRs… killing many of them… this videos are on YouTube too… So for you Russia didn’t have right, but for me and many other south/eastern Ukrainians Russia did have a right, because we were screaming for help and Russia answered.
And then Feb 24 came. I don’t support this full scale war. I think it was a mistake, but I also think Putin didn’t plan it this way. If he knew it’s gonna be like what it is, he would probably hold the horses.

Duntez, can you give me Youtube links about your mentioned videos please?

You and WonderMomma made a great comparision of the major facts. Thank you both. For me, i think a major question is, want the people in South-East Ukraine seperated from the rest of Ukraine or is this only the narrative of the seperatist and Russia?

[WonderMomma]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

Right of the back you missed the key point. On feb 21st between Maidan and Yanukovich was signed an agreement. From Maidain pro western puppet Yatcenuk, head of "Svoboda" party ( IMO NAZI party) Tyagnibok. Witnessed by French, Poland and Germany. The same day once Yanukovich left to Kharkiv, opposition broke this agreement by overtaking governmental buildings, once Police and national guards left obeying order of Yanukovich who was following the agreement. Western politicians who witnessed this agreement kept silence. What happened here is an illegal seizure of power and coup d'etat. There are several ways on how to remove president from power in the constitution of UA and the way it was done was not one of them, so opposition first broke their promise on agreement between them and Yanukovich and later on they broke the Constitutional Law. Right after what happened in Kiev, in Krimea ( especially when local police forces came back from Maidan) locals started to organize territorial defense. Im from Krimea and my uncle joined the movement. The same was happening in Eastern Ukraine. South/Eastern Ukraine did not agree to accept this new so called government and stood up. Now if ur the president of Russia and you see that pretty much bandits took power in 40million people country, where you had your fleet for over 300 years which is strategically important, when you know that people of Krimea during fall of USSR were voting several times to be a part of Russia, when you see no adequate reaction on what's going on from Western countries, which pretty much means they are good about it, you need to act. Putin did what he did. Not sure if all 90% of people of Krimea supported it but I swear god 70 to 80% for sure. We had lines of people willing to vote for joining RF, people were happy, and congratulating each other. Western propaganda didn't show that part or tried to push fake news such as - people of Krimea were forced to do it. Lies.
Ukranian Army in Crimea wasn't "booted out" they were offered to stay and continue their service if they want to and guess what, more then half of them stayed.
Russia didn't make pro-Russian government there, because Crimea was always pro Russia.

Sorry Duntez/Faust… I only have the energy to reply to this… normally I might welcome a double teaming but I’m just not up for it tonight. *insert comedic drum riff*

Yanukovych was a puppet… a Russian puppet with direct pro-Russian Donbas ties. A criminal. A treasonist. A fraudist. A thief. A traitor of the Ukrainian people. Also an accused mass murderer. Corrupt as fuck.

The agreement was signed by Yanukovych himself after which he fled to Kharkiv, making it look like a business trip. The mayor (Dobkin) of Kharkiv confirmed he asked him to set up the visit to make it look as if he was there to conduct business. Dobkin was quoted as saying that he “was desperate to make it look like he wasn’t running away” and said he was completely delusional. He fled because he knew he was in danger. The next process was an impeachment vote and he knew what he had done already (criminally) and knew that he would be voted out on 22 February, which he was by 73% of parliament. I’m sure many people wanted to see him dead as well.

The legality and constitutionality of his removal has been controversial and questioned by many. There was a discrepancy of 10 votes which would have not been enough to remove him constitutionally. However, he had signed the agreement of new elections and formation of an interim government and there were plans to elect a new prime minister no later than 24 February. The resolution to remove him from office didn’t follow the proper procedure but instead established that Yanukovych “withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner” and cited “circumstances of extreme urgency” for which there was no stipulation in the current constitution at the time. The situation as a whole was chaotic and had been for months.

So yes, there were some unusual and gray areas there. What was happening was unprecedented. But not only was the west silent on what happened, Russia, Putin was silent.

A warrant was issued for Yanukovych a couple days later for mass murder of protesters via his Bekrut police force. All kinds of evidence was found in and near his 75 million dollar estate, that he somehow afforded on a 2,000 a month salary. The man spent MILLIONS of dollars a month monitoring the media and evidence was found that one member of the media was brutally beaten for opposing him publicly. And when he was ousted the treasury was nearly empty.

As I said previously, for me personally, the ousting and the way it was done is moot when it comes to justifying anything Russia has done in the last 6 months. It cannot be undone and given the severity of the situation and all the violence going on, something HAD TO BE DONE. He was clearly not the man the people wanted in the position.

Even if everything had gone by the book, this would still be happening. Russia would still be invading. Russia still would have tried and failed to take Kyiv, in an attempt to take control of the whole country, which is what they really want. And guess who would have been president of Ukraine if Russia’s plan to take Kyiv would have worked? They had him in Minsk all greased up and ready to go until they withdrew their plan to take the capital.

Regarding Crimea… I read that Russia gave Ukraine the peninsula in the 50’s, I think, so it’s no wonder there are mostly Russians there. And once the USSR fell and Ukraine gained their independence (again) in 1991, it still belonged to Ukraine. It was Ukraine’s territory in 2014 and it’s Ukraine’s territory today. Russia doesn’t care about the Russians there. They don’t care about anyone in the Donbas. They are all a means to an end. Those ends being old ideologies, resources, money and power by any means necessary.

I think at this point, my fingers are exhausted. Lol We will have to agree to disagree. I think I’ve stated my position on it enough and posted too many novels. I do appreciate and respect the mutual and civil dialogue. I sincerely do, it’s just beating a dead horse at this point.

[duntez]

Originally Posted by WonderMomma ↗

Sorry Duntez/Faust… I only have the energy to reply to this… normally I might welcome a double teaming but I’m just not up for it tonight. *insert comedic drum riff*

Yanukovych was a puppet… a Russian puppet with direct pro-Russian Donbas ties. A criminal. A treasonist. A fraudist. A thief. A traitor of the Ukrainian people. Also an accused mass murderer. Corrupt as fuck.

The agreement was signed by Yanukovych himself after which he fled to Kharkiv, making it look like a business trip. The mayor (Dobkin) of Kharkiv confirmed he asked him to set up the visit to make it look as if he was there to conduct business. Dobkin was quoted as saying that he “was desperate to make it look like he wasn’t running away” and said he was completely delusional. He fled because he knew he was in danger. The next process was an impeachment vote and he knew what he had done already (criminally) and knew that he would be voted out on 22 February, which he was by 73% of parliament. I’m sure many people wanted to see him dead as well.

The legality and constitutionality of his removal has been controversial and questioned by many. There was a discrepancy of 10 votes which would have not been enough to remove him constitutionally. However, he had signed the agreement of new elections and formation of an interim government and there were plans to elect a new prime minister no later than 24 February. The resolution to remove him from office didn’t follow the proper procedure but instead established that Yanukovych “withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner” and cited “circumstances of extreme urgency” for which there was no stipulation in the current constitution at the time. The situation as a whole was chaotic and had been for months.

So yes, there were some unusual and gray areas there. What was happening was unprecedented. But not only was the west silent on what happened, Russia, Putin was silent.

A warrant was issued for Yanukovych a couple days later for mass murder of protesters via his Bekrut police force. All kinds of evidence was found in and near his 75 million dollar estate, that he somehow afforded on a 2,000 a month salary. The man spent MILLIONS of dollars a month monitoring the media and evidence was found that one member of the media was brutally beaten for opposing him publicly. And when he was ousted the treasury was nearly empty.

As I said previously, for me personally, the ousting and the way it was done is moot when it comes to justifying anything Russia has done in the last 6 months. It cannot be undone and given the severity of the situation and all the violence going on, something HAD TO BE DONE. He was clearly not the man the people wanted in the position.

Even if everything had gone by the book, this would still be happening. Russia would still be invading. Russia still would have tried and failed to take Kyiv, in an attempt to take control of the whole country, which is what they really want. And guess who would have been president of Ukraine if Russia’s plan to take Kyiv would have worked? They had him in Minsk all greased up and ready to go until they withdrew their plan to take the capital.

Regarding Crimea… I read that Russia gave Ukraine the peninsula in the 50’s, I think, so it’s no wonder there are mostly Russians there. And once the USSR fell and Ukraine gained their independence (again) in 1991, it still belonged to Ukraine. It was Ukraine’s territory in 2014 and it’s Ukraine’s territory today. Russia doesn’t care about the Russians there. They don’t care about anyone in the Donbas. They are all a means to an end. Those ends being old ideologies, resources, money and power by any means necessary.

I think at this point, my fingers are exhausted. Lol We will have to agree to disagree. I think I’ve stated my position on it enough and posted too many novels. I do appreciate and respect the mutual and civil dialogue. I sincerely do, it’s just beating a dead horse at this point.

Yes I agree to disagree. You missed the key points again. Seems like a pro western wiki just spoke to me No offense, I do appreciate your reading and time spent.
Krimea stopped being Ukrainian right after Maidan took power in this country the way it did. We, people of Krimea did not recognize that government and never will. It is our choice and the rest of the world can either respect that or continue to pretend that people opinion matters.

[duntez]

Originally Posted by Stefan800 ↗

Duntez, can you give me Youtube links about your mentioned videos please?

You and WonderMomma made a great comparision of the major facts. Thank you both. For me, i think a major question is, want the people in South-East Ukraine seperated from the rest of Ukraine or is this only the narrative of the seperatist and Russia?

1. Mariupol. Citizens built barricades to stop Ukr army. Local police took peoples side and local central police department was stormed by UA forces. you can see locals screaming and yelling at them things such "GTFO" "faschists" and so on. Locals who tried to reason with them to stop the slaughter were getting shot.





2. Locals trying to stop Ukr BTRs



3. Odessa massacare 2nd of may

[duntez]

Originally Posted by Stefan800 ↗

Duntez, can you give me Youtube links about your mentioned videos please?

You and WonderMomma made a great comparision of the major facts. Thank you both. For me, i think a major question is, want the people in South-East Ukraine seperated from the rest of Ukraine or is this only the narrative of the seperatist and Russia?

in 2014 only Krimea wanted to join Russia. Donbass wanted Russian language as 2nd national, locally controlled police and special status ( that's what I remember), but they wanted to stay in Ukraine. After Kiev sent forces to deal with them, people thought there is no way back..Ukraine was done for them. So LDNR deffinetly wants to join IMO. Now other regions that Russia occupied since feb of this year...well hard to say, even tho my first thought was - hell no. 8 years of Kiev propaganda and death of Ukr countrymen and civilians would make a lot of people mad. But at the same time, Nikolaev, Kherson, Odessa, Melitopol, Kharkiv always considered more pro Russia cities. Not in the way they wanted to be a part of Russia, rather they felt more cultural connection with Russia then with so called Austro-Hungarian lands of Ukraine. And I know there are a lot of people who was hating what Ukr government was doing all this 8 years...they were scared to speak up and if did, would get a jail time or worse. War could change mind of this people as well. And I do not know how many people thought that way or were getting scared etc...plus, the longer war will continue, the more supporters Russia will loose in those regions I think. I don't watch Russian TV...last time was like last year... so if Russia is saying this regions are waiting for them is straight up BS IMO especially after 6 month of this madness. One thing Donbass people, kids were getting killed by UA army since 2014, another thing occupied lands that lived in piece with Ukraine this 8 years. To them Russia brought the war. But I also can't say that there are no people who's waiting for Russians to come. Im sure there are, just don't know how many.

[duntez]

- meanwhile in Czech Republic

[WonderMomma]

Originally Posted by duntez ↗

Yes I agree to disagree. You missed the key points again. Seems like a pro western wiki just spoke to me No offense, I do appreciate your reading and time spent.
Krimea stopped being Ukrainian right after Maidan took power in this country the way it did. We, people of Krimea did not recognize that government and never will. It is our choice and the rest of the world can either respect that or continue to pretend that people opinion is matters.

Well point me to a credible wiki for your arguments and I'll be happy to drag an eyeball over it.

And I get it and understand. I know that some Ukrainians have made plenty of mistakes and done some horrible things in regard to all this... but they're not over in Russia doing these things on someone else's territory. There are people they are defending their land against who want to take it. It sucks that there are innocent civilians dying and suffering for what both countries are doing on both sides.

I also fully acknowledge that as someone who has never lived or experienced life in either country, I am naturally ignorant to many things that have happened. Perhaps I couldn't possibly know everything... but I can only work with the information that is available to me. I do try very hard to weed out the bullshit... it gets very difficult and I start to question why I am even putting myself through all the concern and emotions of giving a shit about any of it. But I do care. I care about the humans on both sides caught in the middle.

Having said that, the only key point for me is that the soil that all of this is going on is Ukrainian. Perhaps Russia should have thought of their ethnic Russian population in Crimea BEFORE giving it to Ukraine in the 50's, or whenever it was. But that is the end all, be all bottom line for me. Especially knowing the motives of the Russian Federation as previously mentioned.

Hypothetically, if a bunch of Canadians who had immigrated to the US or were born or raised here through immigrants for generations wanted to take over, run, and change the laws of part of the United States as their own, effectively making those regions a part of Canada, that wouldn't fly over here either. I would feel the same if the roles were reversed.

OK... so let's hug it out. Or we could have a dance off.

[WonderMomma]

You know it just dawned on me... I am constantly questioning myself. Perhaps I am choosing to go with the lesser of two evils... or perhaps I am holding past transgressions against Russia. I group up in the 70's and 80's. The 80's especially were a scary time in the US as a kid. Russia was our enemy, according to our government. The movie Red Dawn... even that one Lethal Weapon with the Russian Diplomats "Diplomatic Immunity!" POW... "Well it's just been revoked". Also Rocky 4 with Drago He was SO attractive but I didn't like him.
"I will BREAK YOU"


Such powerful memories (thanks Hollywood ).

But then the cold war ended, the Berlin wall went down, I met Gorbachev and all those inner tensions seemed to go away. lol

Even in the mid 90's when I began my corporate career... my work was all international. My first corporate job was at a government contractor and our "partners" were all Russian and Lithuanian. Very nice people.

Could I still be influenced by that stuff? lol I'm intelligent and rational enough now to know that Russians are not bad people... but we were told something very different as kids. This whole thing was quite traumatizing as a child. I also wonder if this life experience is why I'm so addicted to playing COD Cold War. The more I don't "understand" something, the deeper the dive I go.