[WhiskeyOutpost]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

If Conor and Khabib fight, and I am anti-Connor, that does not mean I am pro-Khabib. Merely that I am “on Khabib’s side”, for that fight/conflict

I get it, anti NATO doesn't mean you're "pro Russia".

But did you see that Ukranian fighter? Dressed up like a Cossack and sang Chervona Kalina at the press conference

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Originally Posted by WonderMomma ↗

.
Good stuff

Well said WonderMomma, and to team Russia, I don't hate you... I know I'm opinionated and because of my mom's side of the family and their awful experience under Soviets. But I also grew up with 4 siblings and I realize the worth of taking a step back and seeing the big picture

[Faust]

Thank you for your well written post.

“ Crimea, the Donbas... they are not legitimate Russian territory. They are occupied. Nothing more. They were taken. Not bought, sold, or received. Not bartered, negotiated, or won as a prize. Not legitimately, not legally.”

I think this is your missing link.
They were never taken by Russia, nor claimed as Russian territory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_...Minsk_Protocol

So imagine in the south of the US there are regions with 90% population of Native Americans. The US government after a coup, removes some of their rights from the constitution, makes their language illegal, cancels their political parties, basically apartheid.
The Native Americans do not see themselves as US citizens anymore after the coup and actions, and declare themselves as independent, so the US sends the army and starts killing them. They fight back and Mexico helps them with military equipment. As Mexicans and Native Americans share their continental ancestors more so than the essentially occupying Caucasian Europeans but anyway. Also Mexicans speak Native American so they identify with the Native Americans Cause.

Then the Minsk agreements come; signed by the US and outside parties, promising to end the hostilities against their Native American citizens in their independent regions. They are to receive special status and would be allowed to keep their language and political parties and everything.

Instead of honoring the agreements signed 8 years ago, Joe Biden actually got elected 3 years ago promising to honor them and getting votes even from Native Americans, he keeps attacking and killing them. So Mexico says “honor the Minsk agreements or we will fuck you up.”
After which Mexico begins to invade and start disarming the US.

My point is, you were essentially saying:

“ The Native American Independent Republics... they are not legitimate Mexican territory. They are occupied. Nothing more. They were taken. Not bought, sold, or received. Not bartered, negotiated, or won as a prize. Not legitimately, not legally.”

[Faust]

I’ll put Reuters and CNN links for all the events later

[WonderMomma]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

Thank you for your well written post.



I think this is your missing link.
They were never taken by Russia, nor claimed as Russian territory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_...Minsk_Protocol

So imagine in the south of the US there are regions with 90% population of Native Americans. The US government after a coup, removes some of their rights from the constitution, makes their language illegal, cancels their political parties, basically apartheid.
The Native Americans do not see themselves as US citizens anymore after the coup and actions, and declare themselves as independent, so the US sends the army and starts killing them. They fight back and Mexico helps them with military equipment. As Mexicans and Native Americans share their continental ancestors more so than the essentially occupying Caucasian Europeans but anyway. Also Mexicans speak Native American so they identify with the Native Americans Cause.

Then the Minsk agreements come; signed by the US and outside parties, promising to end the hostilities against their Native American citizens in their independent regions. They are to receive special status and would be allowed to keep their language and political parties and everything.

Instead of honoring the agreements signed 8 years ago, Joe Biden actually got elected 3 years ago promising to honor them and getting votes even from Native Americans, he keeps attacking and killing them. So Mexico says “honor the Minsk agreements or we will fuck you up.”
After which Mexico begins to invade and start disarming the US.

My point is, you were essentially saying:

It's kind of hard for me to compare the two situations hypothetically even... comparing Russians in Ukraine to Native American's in the US is apples to oranges. Way different. I know you were only using it as an example, it just might take me some time to wrap my brain around the comparison. I believe I can sort out the basics of what you are saying. I will definitely try.

But I am going to sleep on this, and will do some digging later on and I will get back to you.

[WonderMomma]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

I’ll put Reuters and CNN links for all the events later

Ugh. They're all so awful.

[Faust]

Originally Posted by WonderMomma ↗

It's kind of hard for me to compare the two situations hypothetically even... comparing Russians in Ukraine to Native American's in the US is apples to oranges. Way different. I know you were only using it as an example, it just might take me some time to wrap my brain around the comparison. I believe I can sort out the basics of what you are saying. I will definitely try.

But I am going to sleep on this, and will do some digging later on and I will get back to you.

Maybe latino-Americans would have been better as the Native Americans were the real inhabitants of the US before all the genocide? But Spanish was never an official language in the US I think. Anyway even if you don’t agree, at the very least thank you for thinking about it

[duntez]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

Also dudes, I sent rfneimad a PM on where the hell he is hours ago, no response yet. It would seem me may have gone code byla?

He’s deff having fun with Byla at one those Tropical gay hotels in South Beach Miami

[WonderMomma]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

Thank you for your well written post.



I think this is your missing link.
They were never taken by Russia, nor claimed as Russian territory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_...Minsk_Protocol

So imagine in the south of the US there are regions with 90% population of Native Americans. The US government after a coup, removes some of their rights from the constitution, makes their language illegal, cancels their political parties, basically apartheid.
The Native Americans do not see themselves as US citizens anymore after the coup and actions, and declare themselves as independent, so the US sends the army and starts killing them. They fight back and Mexico helps them with military equipment. As Mexicans and Native Americans share their continental ancestors more so than the essentially occupying Caucasian Europeans but anyway. Also Mexicans speak Native American so they identify with the Native Americans Cause.

Then the Minsk agreements come; signed by the US and outside parties, promising to end the hostilities against their Native American citizens in their independent regions. They are to receive special status and would be allowed to keep their language and political parties and everything.

Instead of honoring the agreements signed 8 years ago, Joe Biden actually got elected 3 years ago promising to honor them and getting votes even from Native Americans, he keeps attacking and killing them. So Mexico says “honor the Minsk agreements or we will fuck you up.”
After which Mexico begins to invade and start disarming the US.

My point is, you were essentially saying:

For the record... I am someone who believes that in the United States, unless you are Native American, you're an immigrant or descendants of immigrants. But being born in the United States does technically make you American. Some people here in the US reject this, but technically, it's true. Seems to be a little hypocritical for Americans to complain about reasonable immigration based on that point alone. Not to deny there are serious issues on the southern border, but that is another thread, entirely.

I also know that despite how very badly people are in denial of this fact, Mexican heritage is directly tied to Native American heritage as well... and therefore the United States. Parts of the US once were Mexico. Hell, the US annexed Texas and fought with Mexico for two years over it until Mexico agreed to the US taking the territory.

Anyway…so I was unable to grasp the comparison as you made it but I did do some research into the main point of your reply, regarding the Minsk Agreements.

Yanukovych was gone and Petro Poroshenko elected in May of 2014 to succeed him. During the month after Yanukovych’s departure, on Putin’s orders, masked Russian troops captured areas of Crimea (airports and military bases), booted out the Ukrainian military and led to the installation of the pro-Russian Aksyonov government. Initially denying this, Putin later admitted he deployed the troops to “stand behind Crimea’s self-defence forces” referring to separatist forces.

After the official annexation of Crimea on 18 March Russia wasted no time in escalating its military presence and making nuclear threats to establish itself on the peninsula. Around the same time the “Republic of Crimea” voted to join the Russian Federation.

Ukraine and many other countries considered this to be a direct violation of international law. Not only that, this action by Russia was a violation of agreements Russia had made safeguarding the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

So I have to politely disagree with you saying that Russia didn’t take Ukraine’s territory. That’s exactly what happened. Further, in addition to resources in the Donbas region and southern Ukraine, access to the Black Sea (essentially cutting off Ukraine’s access to it) Putin is aiming to do the same exact things with the LPR/DPR and any other areas it captures, again, using the pro-Russian separatists to do it. I recently wrote an article that they were planning a referendum to take over Kherson this month. But I think all hell is breaking loose down there as Ukraine fights to defend against this.

So on to the Minsk Agreements aimed at ending the war in the Donbas region after the Euromaidan events and the ousting of Yanukovych. I’m sure you are aware of the agreements but I only summarize them here to demonstrate my understanding of them.

Relations between Ukraine and Russia were extremely tense so a group was formed to facilitate discussions between the two countries.

At the table was the “Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine''. Consisting of representatives from Ukraine, the Russian Federation, and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). France and Germany were involved as mediators.

After a series of initial meetings, UA president Poroshenko created a 15 point peace plan calling for a ceasefire and consisting of the following:

1. Security guarantees for all the participants of negotiations.
2. Amnesty for those who laid down weapons and didn't commit serious crimes.
3. Liberation of hostages.
4. Establishment of a 10-kilometre (6+1⁄4 mi) long buffer zone on the Ukrainian-Russian border. Withdrawal of illegal armed formations.
5. Secure corridor for the escape of Russian and Ukrainian mercenaries.
6. Disarmament.
7. Establishment of units for joint patrolling in the structure of the MIA.
8. Liberation of illegally seized administrative premises in Donetsk and Luhansk regions.
9. Restoration of functioning of local government.
10. Restoration of central television and radio broadcasting in Donetsk and Luhansk regions.
11. Decentralization of power (through the election of executive committees, protection of Russian language; draft amendments to the Constitution).
12. Coordination of governors with representatives of the Donbas before the elections
13. Early local and parliamentary elections.
14. Program of creating jobs in the region.
15. Restoration of industrial objects and objects of social infrastructure.

Russia said the plan “looks like an ultimatum” and Putin insisted Poroshenko include separatists in the negotiations, which was rejected.

I’d like to point out again that Donbas is a part of the country of Ukraine. Regardless of who lives there. Regardless of who thinks they were and are currently running those areas. If I were president of Ukraine, I too would absolutely refuse to meet or even hear from separatists living in my country with interests in another country. This, to me, is just obvious. Besides, by taking Crimea, Russia would have been on my shit list and I’m not sure I would have humored them at all by agreeing to any talks. But that is just what my instincts and common sense lead me to. It may be different if I were actually from Ukraine so I can’t say for sure. I'm sure they agreed to the talks to try to achieve peace and some kind of normalcy.

So other representatives met with the separatists who initially rejected a ceasefire, but later agreed to it when on 23 June 2014, Alexander Borodai, the separatist PM to the DPR, said his forces would hold to the ceasefire. The next day, his forces shot down a Ukrainian Armed Forces Mi-8 helicopter near Sloviansk killing everyone on board.

The next day, Poroshenko issued a statement that the ceasefire had been violated by separatists at least 35 times. This is when Borodai claimed there was never a ceasefire. Both sides continued to blame each other.

Talks between groups continued on 31 July, 26 August, 1 September and 5 September 2014. Finally on the 5 September the groups signed the “Minsk Protocol” largely resembling UA president Poroshenko’s 15 point plan. It consisted of the following 12 points:

1. To ensure an immediate bilateral ceasefire.
2. To ensure the monitoring and verification of the ceasefire by the OSCE.
3. Decentralization of power, including through the adoption of the Ukrainian law "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts".
4. To ensure the permanent monitoring of the Ukrainian-Russian border and verification by the OSCE with the creation of security zones in the border regions of Ukraine and the Russian Federation.
5. Immediate release of all hostages and illegally detained persons.
6. A law preventing the prosecution and punishment of people in connection with the events that have taken place in some areas of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts.
7. To continue the inclusive national dialogue.
8. To take measures to improve the humanitarian situation in Donbas.
9. To ensure early local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian law "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts".
10. To withdraw illegal armed groups and military equipment as well as fighters and mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine.
11. To adopt a programme of economic recovery and reconstruction for the Donbas region.
12. To provide personal security for participants in the consultations.

In the two weeks after the protocol was signed, there were continued violations of the ceasefire by both parties to the conflict.

In late September these relatively minor infractions became more frequent until DPR forces launched a “concerted effort” to retake Donetsk International Airport from Ukrainian forces. Some of the worst fighting occurred from this time through January 2015. On 13 January, the leader of the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine announced the situation had “significantly deteriorated”. DPR forces issued an ultimatum to Ukrainian forces stating if they did not withdraw by 17:00 local time, they would “face destruction”. During this time the airport’s flag changed a few times until DPR forces claimed victory at the airport on 21 January.

A spokesman for the DPR, Eduard Basurin said in defiance of the Minsk Protocol that “the Minsk Memorandum will not be considered into the form it was adopted”. Later that day, DPR leader Alexander Zakharchenko said that the DPR “will not make any attempts at ceasefire talks anymore”, and that his forces were going to “attack right up to the borders of the Donetsk region”. DPR and LPR then began new offensives on Ukrainian controlled areas, resulting in the complete collapse of the Minsk Protocol ceasefire.

Concerned, France and Germany put forth a new peace plan on 7 February following talks with presidents of both Ukraine and Russia. It would be seen as a revival of the Minsk Protocol and the plan was the “last chance” for resolution of the conflict, according to French president Hollande.

A summit to discuss the plan was scheduled on 11 February in Minsk attended by Russian president Putin, Ukrainian president Poroshenko, German chancellor Merkel, French president Hollande, DPR leader Zakharchenko, and LPR leader Igor Plotnitsky. Negotiations went on overnight for 16 hours and were said to be “very difficult”.

“Minsk II” was signed on 12 February 2015. But like the others, it fell apart and the fighting continued.

Fast forward to this year… Russia fully recognized the LPR and DPR on 21 February 2022 and Putin declared the Minsk agreements “no longer existed” (no shit!? lol) and then cue the invasion.

Long story short… peace between the two sides was never in the cards. Not as long as Russia was trying to gain Ukrainian territory through any means. Agreements are just pieces of paper that are actually meaningless if they’re not held by both sides. But what I’m trying to convey, still, is the single point that the soil this is all happening on, is Ukrainian.

Ukraine is Ukraine. The Donbas is in Ukraine. Crimea is Ukraine. Seems Ukraine was ok with the Russian population living and existing there until they tried to take over. Separatists at first… and now backed by the Russian government and eventually becoming a part of the Russian Federation. It’s just not fundamentally acceptable.

I wouldn’t agree with Ukraine outlawing the Russian language altogether, but this does not seem plausible to me since Russian is so prolific in the entire country of Ukraine. Most websites from Ukraine are available in both languages, so this doesn’t seem like something that will ever be realistic. It would be comparable to the US outlawing Spanish. Spanish is definitely an integrated language here so that will never happen either.

Apologies, yet another long novel. I seem to be prone to verbosity. But from here forward, I really only have one argument for and defense of Russia’s actions… and that would be that the Donbas is Ukraine, Crimea is Ukraine and Russia has no claim to any part of Ukraine regardless of who lives there. Any claims they stake are based purely on their own interests of gaining Ukraine's resources and re-establishing their antiquated ideology.

I’d like to use my first blood Rambo quote again here but I digress. The saddest part of all of this, for me, are the millions of people caught in the middle. From the civilians in all regions, from both countries, right up to some of the soldiers being forced to fight from both countries.

[WhiskeyOutpost]

A good novel to read, WonderMomma. And I didn't know you wrote articles.

And indeed, the whole of Donbas, and Crimea, is Ukraine.