[duntez]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

The wars fought by Nato (allies) since the collapse of the USSR were benign or positive for the world according to “the global community” and its puppets/trolls. No civilians were ever harmed, no terrorists were ever armed.
Russia is crazy for being afraid of nato. Nato is peaceful.
Because you were taught that, you will never understand any other perspective. That’s basically this entire thread

From the 90s, all scholars about this subject, western intelligence, (former) western leaders have been warning what would happen if nato kept expanding.

Russia however is not defending itself, Russia is crazy for thinking nato would ever cause any harm, Russia just wants to restore the soviet empire and kill as many civilians as possible in the process. Also Putin is hitler. And I think that is about it? Oh I forgot; Russians are evil and should never be trusted by anyone. Unless they have Ukrainian passports in which case they are upstanding peaceful citizens who would never in their life follow any far right extremism.
Unless the citizens live in separatists regions, in which case they are the Nazis and the Ukrainian government should be allowed to wage war against them.

I think that about covers everything

You made it way short if I don’t fall asleep I’ll add some. Otherwise tomorrow

But yeah, they will always think that over 600 US bases around the world is ok, that civilian death by NATO forces is collateral damage and nothing more, that supporting Kurds by US is not the same as Russia supporting South east of Ukraine and so on. Sometimes I think it’s pointless to explain. But then I would meet a few in real life who would get interested and listen.

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Faust, discussions would go smoother if you didn't permeate arguments with multiple strawmen. There's a wide grey area in between extremes.

[duntez]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

Oh I forgot; Russians are evil and should never be trusted by anyone. Unless they have Ukrainian passports in which case they are upstanding peaceful citizens who would never in their life follow any far right extremism.
Unless the citizens live in separatists regions, in which case they are the Nazis and the Ukrainian government should be allowed to wage war against them.

I think that about covers everything

They call them good Russians

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

I am not pro-Russian, but anyway;
Born:Poland/Current passport:Germany

You literally said back in May that you were "on Russia's side" exact quote.

[duntez]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

You literally said back in May that you were "on Russia's side" exact quote.

Because there is no such thing in western head like pro South/East Ukrainian. I think I narrowed it down for you. Plus the question was pro Ukraine or pro Russia

[WhiskeyOutpost]

It was directed to Faust, just saying

[duntez]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

It was directed to Faust, just saying

My bad, 1am after all

[WhiskeyOutpost]

Also dudes, I sent rfneimad a PM on where the hell he is hours ago, no response yet. It would seem me may have gone code byla?

[Faust]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyOutpost ↗

You literally said back in May that you were "on Russia's side" exact quote.

If Conor and Khabib fight, and I am anti-Connor, that does not mean I am pro-Khabib. Merely that I am “on Khabib’s side”, for that fight/conflict

[WonderMomma]

Oh boy, I start replying and look up and it's another novel. Apologies, and I don't blame anyone for not wanting to read it... BUT.... I'm gonna post it anyway.

First of all, to make it clear... I am PRO-HUMAN. More pro-animal, but pro-human too.

Bottom line, RESOURCES is probably the biggest driving factor behind all of this. As it has been for hundreds of years. By any means necessary.

I'll refer back to that other novel I wrote a couple months ago in this thread. Russia invading and conquering the area in the 18th century. Their motivation then? RESOURCES. Coal.

Fast forward 200+ years later and it's the same motivation... with a "native" Russian (and/or sympathizer) population to use as an excuse to take it.

Since Russia has been trying to take Ukraine from waaaaay back... there is now a population of ethnic Russians who were born and raised in Ukraine. I believe most of them are completely innocent bystanders of the powers that be... products of their environment, as were their ancestors who came to Ukraine in the late 1700's/1800's to work. I also know there are people that see the Donbas as true Russian territory for the same reasons.

I understand these people, being deeply imbedded in the area, see Ukraine as the aggressors.

Here's the thing... and the ONLY thing, really but what so many who defend the Russian position seem to forget.

Crimea, the Donbas... they are not legitimate Russian territory. They are occupied. Nothing more. They were taken. Not bought, sold, or received. Not bartered, negotiated, or won as a prize. Not legitimately, not legally.

Russia/RF doesn't care about the people of the Donbas or Crimea. Russia cares about Russia. Russia cares about resources, power, and perceived threats to their antiquated ideology. Ukraine wanted to grow as a country, be allies with Europe/US and other western areas and that, in and of itself, is a threat to Russia and their ideology.

I keep seeing "points" being brought up defending Russia's actions over the last six months. I've tried seeing it from the Russian angle. I've really tried to put blinders on to all the media I'm exposed to and the work I do every day relating to this conflict has given me some great tools to get to the truth. I've tried digging so deeply to get information on my own from both sides. It is so VERY difficult. I trust no government entities as a whole... and I can count on ONE hand the humans I trust, so the internal conflict within me is brutal, all around. lol

I seek out legit Russian information, I seek out legit Ukrainian information. But like most of the world's media, much of it emotional, opinionated and heavily biased. I have the same problem getting the truth here in the US. lol As a result, I am forced to use common sense to wade through the irrational, ridiculous, and emotional rantings. Once I see insulting, demeaning and superiority/inferiority attitudes, I get deflated. But I have to go with what makes the most sense in my core, as a human being based on the truth I make every effort to find. It's a fucking struggle.

I have to admit, however... I have yet to hear one legitimate, legal, or moral reason that would justify Russia invading Ukraine. Not one. It's simply a case of a more powerful nation trying to take what is not theirs. Never was, never will be... unless Ukraine GIVES it to Russia.

The whole point of the ousting in 2014 of the president of Ukraine is not an excuse either. One reason is because Viktor Yanukovych was a crooked oligarch with pro-Russian Donbas ties, pro-Russian political party involvement and with more Russian friends and interests than the people of Ukraine felt comfortable with. They wanted him out and I don't blame them.

If he was legitimate and had the interests of the Ukrainian people truly at heart he would have never been ousted. The people didn't make him illegitimate, HE made himself illegitimate with his actions and interests. He is STILL living in exile in Russia since the night he fled the city of Kyiv and has since been investigated for financial crimes. And he has a criminal record involving assault, bribery and allegations of rape. He should have never been president to begin with.

But the main reason... Russia shouldn't be there to begin with. So NOTHING they have done or will do is justified. Trust me, I've been looking... waiting... kind of hoping for SOMETHING that would drop out of the sky and make me say to myself... "ahhh, ok I understand this now". Every day since the start of this invasion... and so far, absolutely nothing has made me understand it. Nothing.

So all of the little satellite issues taking place that Ukraine and Russia are playing the blame game with... the prison explosion, the ZNPP, the civilian casualties, the cultural and religious losses due to the fighting... I say once again, Russia should not be there. Period.

Having said ALL of that... I've had some great conversations with Duntez and Faust. I appreciate the fact we can talk civilly and I hope that continues. Ultimately, I respect the fact you and others feel differently. For that, I won't think any less of you as a fellow human being. You're going to think I'm wrong, I think you're wrong. But that's ok. No need to split hairs over it. It just is what it is.

We live in a mad, mad world.