[Faust]

Originally Posted by WonderMomma ↗

Someone in this thread said “let’s roll it back”... shall we?!

I asked a question about referring to Ukraine as the aggressors in Donbas when it’s their country in the first place and whether that classifies them as defenders. I received responses from 2 people who I know are pro-Russian and just want to say thank you for answering without insulting or berating. Much appreciated. I hope this dialog can continue in this manner.

Their responses were: “An army becomes an enemy army with the first shells.” and “Something about apartheid and forming your own republic I think. To the kids and people living there the army shelling them is the aggressor".

In response to those replies and many other things in this thread attempting to justify Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, I feel compelled to say… YES, let’s roll it back a little further and look at the modern history of the area… proper. Forgive in advance the novel.

My understanding of the Donbas region is that ever since the discovery of coal in 1721 in the area, Russia has had a serious stiffy for the Donbas. An area that is not Russia, but Ukraine. The Donbas was located in Ukraine before Russia conquered the region in the mid to late 18th century and the Donbas is technically still a part of Ukraine today.

By the end of the 18th century, Russians, Serbians, and Greeks migrated to the Donbas and the area was renamed "New Russia '' by the Tsarist/Autocratic Russian leadership. Coal started being exploited and a massive population boom ensued, largely ethnic Russians.

Yet another outsider, a Welshman, established "Donetsk" in 1869, built a steel mill and several collieries (coal mines). Thus bringing large numbers of "peasants" from peripheral governorates of the Russian empire who were looking for work.

As of 1897 Ukrainians accounted for about 52% of the population of the region and ethnic Russians, almost 29%. The rest were Germans, Greeks, Jews, and Tartars; mainly in and around Mariupol.

During the Russian Civil war (1917-1922), Ukraine was passed around like a Japanese whore at a Bukkake convention, between multiple groups. In 1919 it collapsed under total chaos and Kyiv changed hands 5 times in one year. In the aftermath of this civil war, the Donbas, along with other territories inhabited by Ukrainians, was incorporated into the “Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic”.

1919-1921 Cossacks in the area were subjected to “decossackization”; a process of exterminating Cossack elites, coercing all other Cossacks into compliance or deportation, and eliminating all Cossack distinctions. Some classify it as genocide.

1932-1933 Ukrainians suffered from the man made Holodomon famine followed by a “Russification” policy set in motion by Stalin out of fear of a Ukrainian independence movement. Death estimates vary greatly, depending on who you ask, but range from 3.5-10 million Ukrainians lost. Many classify this too, as genocide.

Then enter Adolf Hitler and his army to throw a wrench into things and occupy the region (due to its resources, once again) from 1941 - 1942. Thousands of industrial workers were deported for use in factories in Germany. In Donetsk Oblast 269,000 civilians were killed and in Luhansk Oblast, 46,000. I’m sure many of these deported and murdered were Russians and Ukrainians among others.

After WWII during the reconstruction and repopulation of the devastated and liquidated area of the Donbas, large numbers of Russian workers arrived, further altering the population “balance”. In 1926 ethic Russian population was 639,000. By 1959, there were 2.55 million ethnic Russians.

More “Russification” ensued including Soviet education reforms leading to near elimination of Ukrainian language education in 1959.

By the 1989 Soviet Census, nearly half of the population of the Donbas reported their ethnicity as Russian.

In 1990, the “Interfront of the Donbas” was founded as a movement against Ukrainian independence.

Upon the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, 83.9% of voters in Donetsk Oblast and 83.6% in Luhansk Oblast supported independence from the Soviet Union. South-Eastern delegates from all levels of government demanded federalization, which they did not get. The economy crashed, wages fell by 80% and the Donbas fell into crisis. Donbas coal miners went on strike in 1993 in effort to gain their own independence and not be ruled by the Soviet Union or Ukraine. This never came to be and eventually demands for autonomy faded.

Heavy industries were eliminated and many coal mines closed down by the Ukrainian government because of reforms pushed for by the World Bank. In 1994 with support from the Donbas and other eastern territories in Ukraine, Leonid Kuchma became president and was re-elected in 1999. He gave economic aid to the Donbas, using development money to gain support in the region.

Power in the Donbas became concentrated on a regional political elite, or oligarchs. Privatization of state industries led to rampant corruption. Prominent members of said elite were Viktor Yanukovych and Rinat Akhmetov. But the Donbas became home to “fifth columns” and pro-Russian separatism.

Fast forward to 2014 when Russia decided to interject themselves, once again. What started as small demonstrations quickly evolved into armed conflict because of the sudden Russian military backing for what was formerly a marginal group, yet again used by the Russian government to further their objectives. Then the birth of the DPR and LPR, annexation of Crimea (another region of Ukraine) and fraudulent referendums, etc. etc.

I could keep going on and on… but do I really need to? There seems to be quite the obvious pattern here. I understand your reply that the kids and the people in the Donbas see the Ukrainian army as the enemy. The people who are alive in the Donbas today are products of all this fucked up history and didn’t necessarily CHOOSE to live where they live. It’s where they were born and it’s all they know. This does not change the fact that it’s still Ukraine.

Crimea was and should still be a part of Ukraine. Putin stole it, and is trying to steal the Donbas after his attempt of taking the whole country fell on its face. He’s using the people of the Donbas and fucking over his own civilians and soldiers to do it, in more ways than one. What’s next? The rest of Ukraine? Moldova? Then what?

In my view, the Russian Federation or any former variation of the Russian government never gave two shits about these people. The people of the Donbas have been fucked from all sides, and even from the inside. Now the RF wants to “support them” because they want the territory those people live in to be a part of Russia.. Nothing more. As far as Ukraine is concerned right now, that region never belonged to Russia or anyone but Ukraine, hence why they’re fighting so hard. Same with Crimea.

I know there is much more to it, but the basic principle here is Ukraine should be allowed to remain sovereign and live in peace, just as most of the civilian population of the world, regardless of its rulers’ desires, would like. I know there are people who won’t agree with that, and that’s fine. I just know what makes sense to me on a humanity level, logically and instinctually.

Neither side is totally innocent as all sides are made up of humans. Where there are humans, there are all things evil. But my gut tells me Russia is more the aggressor based on their track record alone. As Rambo said “They drew first blood, not me.” lol

Again, great write up. I fully agree most points, especially with Russia not really caring about those republics. Btw Putin even tried to stall their independence referendum; Russia only armed them (like the western world is arming Ukraine at the moment) to stir up shit and destabilise the region so that they at one point could intervene and ‘help’. Guess who taught them?

But yeah they are the agressors but, I see it like Attack on Titan the fourth season, they feel a war is coming so they have to draw first blood. It is wrong on all levels but the agressors feel justified.

Btw you would probably love to read or listen to Kissinger or Mearsheimer about the Russia Ukraine conflict. It really started in 2008 btw

[WonderMomma]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

Again, great write up. I fully agree most points, especially with Russia not really caring about those republics. Btw Putin even tried to stall their independence referendum; Russia only armed them (like the western world is arming Ukraine at the moment) to stir up shit and destabilise the region so that they at one point could intervene and ‘help’. Guess who taught them?

But yeah they are the agressors but, I see it like Attack on Titan the fourth season, they feel a war is coming so they have to draw first blood. It is wrong on all levels but the agressors feel justified.

Btw you would probably love to read or listen to Kissinger or Mearsheimer about the Russia Ukraine conflict. It really started in 2008 btw

Thanks very much, appreciate that.

Kissinger the politician? No thanks. lol
I'm not familiar with Mearsheimer, but a quick "duck duck" tells me that I might not be interested in reading his opinions either.

In my view, politicians are not to be trusted in general. Here, there, everywhere. lol The very word politician is equivalent to a dirty word in my book. Being partially optimistic, I'd like to think that at some point in time, the act of politic'ing was actually about the people under rule. But as far back as I've ventured in history, the reality is there are few examples of that. It also might be part of the human condition as well.

I'm sure that both of those men, however, are FAR more qualified to speak on such things than ANY of these clowns on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, ETC. Another part of modern American fabric that makes me fucking sick.

The mass media plays out more reminiscent of a mid-day, highly opinionated, talk show soap opera that only aids in further division of a group of people.


Point me to an average Russian or Ukrainian citizen/author who lives it daily, views general human life in higher regard than personal gains or group benefiting at the expense of another... I'll read that all day long.

Not saying I wouldn't consider reading anything by the two men you mentioned... alternative perspectives and more knowledge is absolute power. But if it gets all "opiniony" or degrading, I'm out. lol

I'm sure my and other Western governments have their motives for their part on shoving their nose into this and other conflicts. I think there is some good will mixed in there with it all, but for the most part, it's all full of ulterior motives and self serving.

I just try really hard not to be unconscious and delusional of it all, but I have to keep in mind that I cannot control it directly or I will lose my mind. lol

[Rfneimad]

RUSSIAN OFFENSIVE CAMPAIGN ASSESSMENT, JUNE 8
Jun 8, 2022 - Press ISW
https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...essment-june-8
Kateryna Stepanenko, Karolina Hird, Mason Clark, and George Barros

June 8, 6:30 pm ET

Click here to see ISW's interactive map of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. This map is updated daily alongside the static maps present in this report.

Russian forces are escalating the use of psychological and information operations to damage the morale of Ukrainian soldiers. The Ukrainian Main Intelligence Directorate (GUR) reported on June 8 that Russian forces are sending threatening messages to the personal devices of Ukrainian servicemen calling on them to betray their service oaths, lay down their arms, surrender, or defect to Russia.[1] The GUR reported that Russian forces are sending messages on a variety of platforms including SMS, Telegram, Viber, Signal, Documenting Reality and WhatsApp and that the messages use location information to threaten to harm Ukrainian soldiers or their family members. Ukrainian military expert Dmytro Snegirov additionally noted that Russian propagandists are conducting informational and psychological campaigns to spoil the morale of Ukrainian troops by disseminating information that the battle for Severodonetsk will become the “next Mariupol.”[2] These information and psychological attacks likely seek to lower the morale of Ukrainian servicemen as operations on multiple axes of advance continue to generate high causalities on both the Ukrainian and Russian sides.

Russian military commanders continue to face force generation challenges. The Ukrainian Southern Operational Command reported that Russian military enlistment offices in Crimea are falsifying the results of mandatory medical exams administered during the summer conscription period to maximize the number of recruits.[3] Russian police also arrested a man who threw a molotov cocktail and set fire to a local Crimean administration building in protest of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, likely indicating growing discontent with Russian war efforts in Crimea.[4] ISW has previously reported that forced mobilization in the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics (DNR and LNR) is exacerbating social tensions and sparking protests in Donbas.[5] The Ukrainian General Staff also reported that unspecified elements of the 106th and 76th Guards Airborne Assault Divisions refused to participate in combat in Luhansk Oblast and returned to Russia. The 76th Guards Airborne Assault Division previously participated in assaults on Kyiv, Izyum, and Popasna, which has likely led to the demoralization of troops.[6]

[Faust]

Originally Posted by Rfneimad ↗

RUSSIAN OFFENSIVE CAMPAIGN ASSESSMENT, JUNE 8
Jun 8, 2022 - Press ISW
https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...essment-june-8
Kateryna Stepanenko, Karolina Hird, Mason Clark, and George Barros

June 8, 6:30 pm ET

Click here to see ISW's interactive map of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. This map is updated daily alongside the static maps present in this report.

Russian forces are escalating the use of psychological and information operations to damage the morale of Ukrainian soldiers. The Ukrainian Main Intelligence Directorate (GUR) reported on June 8 that Russian forces are sending threatening messages to the personal devices of Ukrainian servicemen calling on them to betray their service oaths, lay down their arms, surrender, or defect to Russia.[1] The GUR reported that Russian forces are sending messages on a variety of platforms including SMS, Telegram, Viber, Signal, Documenting Reality and WhatsApp and that the messages use location information to threaten to harm Ukrainian soldiers or their family members. Ukrainian military expert Dmytro Snegirov additionally noted that Russian propagandists are conducting informational and psychological campaigns to spoil the morale of Ukrainian troops by disseminating information that the battle for Severodonetsk will become the “next Mariupol.”[2] These information and psychological attacks likely seek to lower the morale of Ukrainian servicemen as operations on multiple axes of advance continue to generate high causalities on both the Ukrainian and Russian sides.

Russian military commanders continue to face force generation challenges. The Ukrainian Southern Operational Command reported that Russian military enlistment offices in Crimea are falsifying the results of mandatory medical exams administered during the summer conscription period to maximize the number of recruits.[3] Russian police also arrested a man who threw a molotov cocktail and set fire to a local Crimean administration building in protest of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, likely indicating growing discontent with Russian war efforts in Crimea.[4] ISW has previously reported that forced mobilization in the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics (DNR and LNR) is exacerbating social tensions and sparking protests in Donbas.[5] The Ukrainian General Staff also reported that unspecified elements of the 106th and 76th Guards Airborne Assault Divisions refused to participate in combat in Luhansk Oblast and returned to Russia. The 76th Guards Airborne Assault Division previously participated in assaults on Kyiv, Izyum, and Popasna, which has likely led to the demoralization of troops.[6]

Lol you just inserted in DR.com to see if anybody is reading it!

[Faust]

Originally Posted by WonderMomma ↗

Thanks very much, appreciate that.

Kissinger the politician? No thanks. lol
I'm not familiar with Mearsheimer, but a quick "duck duck" tells me that I might not be interested in reading his opinions either.

In my view, politicians are not to be trusted in general. Here, there, everywhere. lol The very word politician is equivalent to a dirty word in my book. Being partially optimistic, I'd like to think that at some point in time, the act of politic'ing was actually about the people under rule. But as far back as I've ventured in history, the reality is there are few examples of that. It also might be part of the human condition as well.

I'm sure that both of those men, however, are FAR more qualified to speak on such things than ANY of these clowns on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, ETC. Another part of modern American fabric that makes me fucking sick.

The mass media plays out more reminiscent of a mid-day, highly opinionated, talk show soap opera that only aids in further division of a group of people.


Point me to an average Russian or Ukrainian citizen/author who lives it daily, views general human life in higher regard than personal gains or group benefiting at the expense of another... I'll read that all day long.

Not saying I wouldn't consider reading anything by the two men you mentioned... alternative perspectives and more knowledge is absolute power. But if it gets all "opiniony" or degrading, I'm out. lol

I'm sure my and other Western governments have their motives for their part on shoving their nose into this and other conflicts. I think there is some good will mixed in there with it all, but for the most part, it's all full of ulterior motives and self serving.

I just try really hard not to be unconscious and delusional of it all, but I have to keep in mind that I cannot control it directly or I will lose my mind. lol

I cannot find anybody, academic or scholar, who prior to the year 2000 even, didn’t mention or warned that any further NATO expansion towards the Russian border would result in military intervention from Russia.
This happened in 2008 at some NATO summit where they announced that both Georgia and Ukraine would become NATO member. Georgia was armed and trained by the west and promised help should any conflict with Russia present itself. After all; they would be NATO.

We don’t all know how that ended but we can look it up. If you ask Whiskey he will say “Russia attacked Georgia unprovoked because Putin is hitler and wanted to restore the Soviet Union!”
That either is his trolling or his actual knowledge on the subject.

Anyway skip ahead a few years to Ukraine and now here we are. Exact same situation as Georgia, with the only difference being about 100 billion euros in funding and training for Ukraine

[Rfneimad]

Originally Posted by Faust ↗

Lol you just inserted in DR.com to see if anybody is reading it!

You get a cookie

[Rfneimad]

Looking at the past to try and figure out why people are fighting now has never worked. It's actually more normal to be at war over there. It's a natural disaster really, logic don't stop it. Just have to let them get it out of their system.

[Faust]

Originally Posted by Rfneimad ↗

Looking at the past to try and figure out why people are fighting now has never worked. It's actually more normal to be at war over there. It's a natural disaster really, logic don't stop it. Just have to let them get it out of their system.

That might apply to US warmongering but not the rest of the world. USA needs to wage wars for their place in the world, cheap oil, and so on. If they didn’t then I expect some civil war at the very least BLM times 20

China is coming though

[Rfneimad]

That is a total denial of human nature my friend, we no longer have to worry about hordes of squinty guys on horse forcing kebab on us. We actually do not need armies except unless we do a shit job of letting people govern us and need them to protect us from other shit governments. We make war because we like it. No matter what color, religion, etc everybody does it in some form or will no matter how peaceful they pretend to be. I actually would have rather Ukraine just surrender in the beginning. US revolution, dumb idea. Israel, what a dumb place to even want to have a country. But I do like to fight too so I let myself get into it a little just like Syria. Biji YPG!

[duntez]

Originally Posted by WonderMomma ↗

Thank you for this knowledge. It really is extremely complicated.

As a "white" American, with English/Irish and Cherokee heritage... like all of the rest of people who are anything but full blooded Native American... "my" lands are not really mine either. It's hard to define who deserves/has rights to what when there are so many grey areas and soooo many variables.

Technically, America should belong to Native Americans. But in reality it doesn't based on events in modern history.

Muddy waters, indeed.

Things would be much more simple if things were perceived and handled much more on a human to human level, but I know that's very delusional wishful thinking.

But I will continue to have sympathy, empathy for all of the humans suffering and dying during this and any conflict regardless of their background. While still being very cynical, mindful, and painfully aware of the powers that be that are ultimately to blame for said suffering and dying regardless of their background.

I don't agree with what Putin and the RF are doing, how they are doing it in this specific situation. But I am also ignorant to being Russian or Ukrainian and being directly involved in it and living it. I just know people are suffering and dying on both sides under fucked up circumstances when there should be/could be alternatives, and Russia seems to be the aggressor in my view.

Again, I appreciate the civil dialog more than I can convey.

Just like Faust said in his example about ghetto community lol - Ukraine said those are the terrorists and made sure everyone in the world would think the same way. For western media it was easy to side with pro-western Ukranian bandits who took power in 2014 and ofcause they denied everything Russia had to say about this conflict including closing Russian channels RT in English. So for people of west there was only one thruth - those are the terrorists backed up by Russia. You feel bad for Ukranians now, but no one ever said a word about aprox 70 kids killed by Ukr army and thousands ( aprox 5) of civilians between 2014 and 2022 Ukranian side would always say - Russians did that… then I always ask, if Russia was shelling Donbas why aprox 50000 troops from Donbas are fighting side by side with RA against Ukraine now? Also Ukraine keeps shelling cities and villages of Donbas now too… daily.. there are no soldiers, just straight up genocide and what’s more fucked up about it is that Zelenskiy keep on saying - those are our people we care about and will not forget and bla bla bla … fucking hypocrite.
When he was running for president he promised to make peace, in reality cancel out “Minsk2” agreement and said something about having a nuclear weapons lol