[speakyourmind]

/presses play

/sees David Ike

/turns off video

[fenek]

I find myself posting a lot in threads like these always defending Israel, which is unfortunate, as I'd rather not constantly defend a country whose government is dominated by irresponsibly hawkish individuals.

That being said, I do have a very genuine question: what exactly is meant when one speaks of Zionists? From what I can gather, Zionism was a movement that wanted to create the state of Israel. Their other big thing was a desire to keep Jews from being assimilated into whatever country they lived in, that they should maintain their Jewish identity. The latter is whatever, but the former was accomplished. So what is a Zionist today? Someone who supports Israel's sovereignty? I'm being serious when I ask this, because it seems that the modern definition of 'Zionist' has to be different than the historical definition of 'Zionist'.

If this is what it means, and when someone today says they are anti-Zionist, then that would mean that they don't believe the Jews have a right to Israel, or Palestine rather. I do know and understand why people have a problem with Israel, and I don't think the arguments are invalid, but it's a very one sided way of seeing things. Since the destruction of the original Israel 2000 years ago, Jews, for a number of reasons, either left or were forced to leave the region. Since then, Jews were more often than not unwelcome in whatever country they ended up in. By the 19th century they, like a litany of other minorities/indigenous populations in whatever colony, became deeply influenced by the concept of Nationalism. As idea's like racial science began to legitimize the persicution of the Jews, so did the idea of forming a Jewish state. This of course turned into a necessity immediately before and after the Holocaust. The quote "The Jews are a nervous people. 19 centuries of Christian love have taken a toll" I think sums up a lot of Israeli hostility. While the anti-Christian sentiment is obviously unfair and wrong, its obvious why someone would feel that way.

My point of saying this is that I don't think people see it from Israel's perspective. The actors may have changed, the "Christian" persecutors are now "Muslim" persecutors, but the sentiment and rhetoric is almost identical. They see it as a continuation of centuries worth of anti-Jewishness and as such are responding in a way they've never been able to respond in. As we can see, this has descended into a Hawkish, destructive, shit situation that I do think Israel alone can remedy.

My other point is that the establishment of Israel was not an atypical situation. Burma, Indonesia, India, etc. - all of these countries were established because the people who lived in them were motivated by the same reason the Jews were motivated. Granted, Israel is a bit different. European Jews began to migrate willingly to Palestine at first, and then later sent there as displaced persons, so the vast majority of Jews in Israel are not indigenous.

This whole post is really, honestly me trying to understand the opposing arguments while making points about what I perceive to be the Jewish perspective. Is what I said invalid? Any parts of it?

[mengala]

That being said, I do have a very genuine question: what exactly is meant when one speaks of Zionists?

The answer is there for you to see, but i don't think you want to be honest and face the truth. But i will provide you with a jewish source that explains it to you. So please don't act like you dont have access to the answer for your question.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/notjews.cfm

[lkduke3]

Thank you for that. I have also tried to understand this situation but never thought to Google it. Stupid me.

But thanks for asking the question and thanks for providing a clear, definitive answer.

[fenek]

So what you're saying is that I'm playing dumb and asking for answers that are immediately available if I took a moment to look, right? Your specific version of the truth, in a sea of other truths about a topic so littered with misconceptions and misinformation, stands out among them in such an obvious manner that surely it must be laziness on my part for not knowing exactly what you mean.

Its not a definitive answer - its a link to what a sect of Hasidim believe. Their reasons for rejecting 'Zionism' are for theological reasons as well as the fact that the modern state of Israel has, through its bad behavior, aggravated anti-Jewish feelings worldwide. By linking to their webpage, would it then be safe to assume that you reject Zionism b/c of religious reasons and also concerned about the Jewish public image? Or is it that you subscribe to that particular version of history, and link to a Jewish site for fear of being labeled an antisemite? I promise I wasnt trying to bait you into saying something antisemitic, and I can assure you I understand that when someone says they're anti-Zionist, it doesn't always mean they're anti-Jewish. There are people, of course, who don't make a distinction between the two. And on the other side, there are people who accuse those of opposing Israeli policy on any level of being antisemites, no matter what its about.

The conversation about Israel is so cluttered that its difficult to know what someone means about whatever, especially the word Zionist. It's like the word '***'. I can call a person a '***' and you may have no idea what I mean exactly when I say it, b/c it has so many different meanings at this point. The word Zionist is similar in that its meaning often changes from person to person.

[Oswald2001]

Israel as a Jewish state has a well known and documented 4,500+ year history.

The Moo Slums have stolen all the land they currently occupy in the Middle East by violence and bloodshed.

Even though they have already usurped 99.9% of the land mass of the Middle East, they are trying to take it all. They do this by any and all means possible including misinformation, violence, bloodshed, lying, mind games, terror, etc. In their Queeran, they are taught that the entire Earth and all it's inhabitants are Moo Slum property.

It's part of pyschological warfare to "accuse others of what you are doing". That's why the Moo Slums accuse others, in this case Jews, of the land grabbing that they themselves are actually attempting.

The Moo Slum Islamofacists, like their Nazi facist pals before them, try to project their twisted hate filled pathology on a vulnerable tiny group in different ways.

When you see the term "Zionist" these days, it is almost always from a member of the Fourth Reich or from one of their clueless psychotic Useful Idiot apologists. Really no different than their predecessors in the Third Reich.

Just change Adolph to Mohammed...and viola!

[MrCorpse]

David Icke kinda looks like a lizard with his green shirt there...

[MrCorpse]

Is it possible the Jews picked replaced his wardrobe with the green shirt to make him appear reptilian to the masses?... or does the conspiracy go much deeper?

[Sharon]

I don't really buy into conspiracies

[Ksiegmund]

Why don't you try spelling the Religion's name properly? You are a typical hypocrite slandering another Faith and yet not allowing someone to speak out against Zionism.