[Mr Poo]

Originally Posted by rob666 ↗

And the ghadaffi comparison to nazi germany

When you remove a leader, and create a power vacuum, this is what ALWAYS happens in countries like this with no real sense of national identity. Just like Saddam, what Ghadaffi did was take a bunch of tribes and unify them under a heavy hand, which is the only thing they respect.
It might not give them the "right" to do what they do in your eyes, but short of full scale invasion and another nation building attempt nothing is going to stop them.

Should you not remove mass murderers? Well, at least make a solid policy and stick to it, rather than arbitrarily removing some while supporting others would be a hell of a start.

Give me one example where this has actually worked?

And yes, Libya is on Europe's doorstep. Look at a map.

I understand the dynamic of the creation of a power vacume when a leader is taken out of power. But it was nato not the US, that did do air strikes on targets but there was nothing close to full scale invasion..

[rob666]

Originally Posted by Mr Poo ↗

I understand the dynamic of the creation of a power vacume when a leader is taken out of power. But it was nato not the US, that did do air strikes on targets but there was nothing close to full scale invasion..

I did not mention the US, I did however mention NATO.

Why NATO has started getting involved in regime change, is probably a debate worthy of it's own thread

I would suggest that examples like this would be a huge reason why Putin did not want Ukraine joining NATO, on his doorstep.

[Mr Poo]

Originally Posted by rob666 ↗

I did not mention the US, I did however mention NATO.

Why NATO has started getting involved in regime change, is probably a debate worthy of it's own thread

I would suggest that examples like this would be a huge reason why Putin did not want Ukraine joining NATO, on his doorstep.

NATO interviened because he was killing civilians during a civil war.. I'd say genocide is a good reason for the intervention.

Maybe if Putin wasn't out invading and annexing other countries he wouldn't be so scared..

[rob666]

Originally Posted by Mr Poo ↗

NATO interviened because he was killing civilians during a civil war.. I'd say genocide is a good reason for the intervention.

Maybe if Putin wasn't out invading and annexing other countries he wouldn't be so scared..

Civilians or combatants?

There was an uprising, he tried to quell it, and in the process wound up killing Libyan people that were trying to over run the country.

Genocide? That's news to me.

And would Putin be involved in Ukraine at all if they hadn't tried to join NATO first? What was the chain of events? What happened when Russia tried to put nukes in Cuba? America didn't like the communist bloc setting up shop on it's doorstep, but when Russia takes the same position.......

[Mr Poo]

Originally Posted by rob666 ↗

Civilians or combatants?

There was an uprising, he tried to quell it, and in the process wound up killing Libyan people that were trying to over run the country.

Genocide? That's news to me.

And would Putin be involved in Ukraine at all if they hadn't tried to join NATO first? What was the chain of events? What happened when Russia tried to put nukes in Cuba? America didn't like the communist bloc setting up shop on it's doorstep, but when Russia takes the same position.......

Civilians, look into it..

So if a country wants to join a coalition of nations it gives Putin the right to annex some of their territory?

You can't compare those situations at all. Cuba was ALREADY under communist control and just a puppet of Russia when Russia moved nuclear missiles there within striking range of the US as a fear tactic. The Ukranian people wanting to join NATO isn't anything even close to that situation.

[rob666]

Originally Posted by Mr Poo ↗

Civilians, look into it..

So if a country wants to join a coalition of nations it gives Putin the right to annex some of their territory?

You can't compare those situations at all. Cuba was ALREADY under communist control and just a puppet of Russia when Russia moved nuclear missiles there within striking range of the US as a fear tactic. The Ukranian people wanting to join NATO isn't anything even close to that situation.

Some civilians were killed during the protests..... Far cry from a genicide.
The highest GDP per capita in Africa, longest life expectancy, ghadaffi was far from perfect but he did more for Libya than any other African strongman.

The Ukrainian situation, particularly Crimea isn't that simple..... Russia has treaties that allow it tens of thousands of troops in Crimea, in exchange for Ukraine's independence..... Their presence alone doesn't even constitute a invasion. There was no way Russia was going to let them separate and lose access to the ocean, and they made plans accordingly.

Prior to any missiles being moved to Cuba, America moved nuclear missiles into Turkey, which put all of Russia into range....... It seems that this part is usually left out though.

In any case I don't know how having NATO on your doorstep couldn't be viewed as a threat.
NATO's whole inception was to combat the communist bloc, particularly Russia, and recently that role has become more aggressive.

[Mr Poo]

Originally Posted by rob666 ↗

Some civilians were killed during the protests..... Far cry from a genicide.
The highest GDP per capita in Africa, longest life expectancy, ghadaffi was far from perfect but he did more for Libya than any other African strongman.

The Ukrainian situation, particularly Crimea isn't that simple..... Russia has treaties that allow it tens of thousands of troops in Crimea, in exchange for Ukraine's independence..... Their presence alone doesn't even constitute a invasion. There was no way Russia was going to let them separate and lose access to the ocean, and they made plans accordingly.

Prior to any missiles being moved to Cuba, America moved nuclear missiles into Turkey, which put all of Russia into range....... It seems that this part is usually left out though.

In any case I don't know how having NATO on your doorstep couldn't be viewed as a threat.
NATO's whole inception was to combat the communist bloc, particularly Russia, and recently that role has become more aggressive.

NATO constitutes a system of collective defence whereby its member states agree to mutual defense in response to an attack by any external party. It wasn't created to combat the communist bloc..

[TheVrist]

Moderate Muslims are typically converts that got wrapped up in romancing the culture (westerners that come from Christian backgrounds) and would be to cowardly to ever take their new found faith to a level of extreme radicalism, and Muslims that came from opressed backgrounds, who so happens to like the ability to live like liberated westerners while still preserving their faith.

So yes, there are a shit ton of moderates. Big question is: do they outweigh the not so moderates? And do they surpass in numbers, the amount of passive non moderates?

[Oswald2001]

Originally Posted by TheVrist ↗

Moderate Muslims are typically converts that got wrapped up in romancing the culture (westerners that come from Christian backgrounds) and would be to cowardly to ever take their new found faith to a level of extreme radicalism, and Muslims that came from opressed backgrounds, who so happens to like the ability to live like liberated westerners while still preserving their faith.

So yes, there are a shit ton of moderates. Big question is: do they outweigh the not so moderates? And do they surpass in numbers, the amount of passive non moderates?

You are missing the critical point.


The so-called 'moderates' are the problem more so than the 'radicals'.

The so-called 'moderates' are the shaft of the spear whereas the radicals are only the tip of the spear.

Without the support of the vast majority of the mass of the spear, you would just have an impotent spearhead capable of doing...nothing.

The so-called 'moderates' provide the stability, mass, supposed 'legitimacy' (for PR purposes) and economy of scale (financing) needed for the moo slum slaughter of innocents to continue.

You don't need a large percentage of 1.5 Billion moo slums to be 'radical' to keep the world in turmoil.

TURMOIL and CHAOS is actually what they are after.

It's the Comfort Zone of the Arab/moo slum ******* which is CHAOS based.

What The West considers to be a problem, the Arab/moo slum ******* people think of and experience as 'Home Sweet Home'.

Madness and Confusion is what moo slums seek. That's why they create it everywhere they go whenever they can and as much as they can.


Sanity, Clarity and Prosperity are the moo slums' real enemies.

Ya can't run a completely insane DEATH Cult in an atmosphere of Sanity, Clarity and with a successful happy people.

[niknik]

Originally Posted by rob666 ↗

Civilians or combatants?

There was an uprising, he tried to quell it, and in the process wound up killing Libyan people that were trying to over run the country.

Genocide? That's news to me.

And would Putin be involved in Ukraine at all if they hadn't tried to join NATO first? What was the chain of events? What happened when Russia tried to put nukes in Cuba? America didn't like the communist bloc setting up shop on it's doorstep, but when Russia takes the same position.......

Of course America didn't want nuclear weapons aimed at America 100 miles off the coast of Florida.

That has nothing to do with Ukraine, because Ukraine wasn't going to get nuclear weapons.

You're twisting the story. Ukraine wanted to join the EU, and wanted to join NATO for one reason. For protection.

Russia is spinning the story too, the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was because they were afraid they would lose Crimea, an important military area. Now nuclear weapons are in Ukraine, but they are Russian nuclear weapons.

Russia didn't want to allow Ukraine to act in their best interest, Russia wanted to control Ukraine. So Ukraine would act in Russias best interest.

Read the facts. Ukraine first applied to join NATO in 94. And later decided to stay neutral, and didn't formally get serious about NATO until after the Russian invasion of Crimea. NATO never attempted to corral Ukraine into the treaty. Russian media is lying when they say otherwise.