[Illusion]

I'm not buying that anyone without an severe medical problem dies from an RNC held for under 20 seconds.

[Mr Poo]

Originally Posted by mr black ↗

Um no... I respectfully disagree. Take a look at it again. The cop let go of the choke well before he went unconscious. The coke was let go well after you hear Eric Garner say "I can't breath" multiple times. Again, imo the choke had nothing to do with this man's death. Being morbidly obese and resisting arrest caused this man to die.

Watching it again, you're actually totally right about him not being out. I watched it on mute again today because I'm at work. He did look unconscious toward the end but was still saying he couldn't breath.

Don't get me wrong, his obesity likely played a big roll in it all. Maybe the combo of his heart already being under a strain from the weight, the choke out, then multiple officers knees on his chest and one on the temple was enough to do the trick. The fact that using a chokehold is not how officers are supposed to restrain someone by NY law, is the place I find an issue. If they were allowed to do it, it was just a tragic accident. If they aren't allowed it's a crime.

From an officers perspective how would they know if he really was losing consciousness from not breathing or was just still trying to resist.. It's a hard call from their boots, but that choke out should have never occurred in the first place.

[niknik]

Originally Posted by 30564U ↗

When a grand jury fails to indict an individual...and don't forget a grand jury has a very low threshold for indictment (I believe it's just 50% chance and a feather and not a preponderance of evidence) then it would be impossible to get a criminal conviction. There was so little evidence in this case and that of Michael Brown of ANY CRIME, that the grand jury couldn't even recommend that a prosecution be attempted.

Watching the video I suppose I don't think any cop acted criminally. Maybe a touch excessive.

I do know for a fact when you're really being choked to the point you cannot breath. You can't talk either.

[Mr Poo]

Originally Posted by niknik ↗

Watching the video I suppose I don't think any cop acted criminally. Maybe a touch excessive.

I do know for a fact when you're really being choked to the point you cannot breath. You can't talk either.

I've seen it done many times.. People let out a scream out of anger just before or as they are tapping out because they know they are submitted from a RNC. It's much easier to get air out than in..

The guy obviously had some sort of previous health issues, but that doesn't take away from that the officer used a technically illegal tactic.

[30564U]

We went through the whole "chokehold" issues here in the Los Angeles area way back in the late seventies and early eighties. Back before the mid 1980's the LAPD (along with everyone else) taught and used the bar arm chokehold, carotid control hold, and vascular neck restraint to subdue uncooperative law breakers. Over the years, it was noted that a disproportionate number of Blacks were killed by chokeholds. Here's how the hold works, you basically squeeze off the blood flow going to the brain and that makes the bad guy basically pass out for anywhere from five to forty seconds...just time enough to get the handcuffs on and take a breath. The case that threw what otherwise was a very very effective compliance hold into the trashcan, involved a Black guy named James Mincy Jr. who was initially stopped for a cracked front windshield. Well, needless to say, Mr. Mincy reacted rather uncooperatively and was choked and subsequently died as a result. The LA City Counsel (always a forum for idiots, retards, and those incapable of holding real jobs) bitched, moaned, and knee jerked about the evils and deaths (an average of one to two per year) from the choke hold. Then the LAPD's beloved and outspoken Chief Daryl Gates said, during a news conference of the use of the choke hold, that Blacks carotid arteries were located in a slightly different place than "normal people's" carotid arteries. Of course his Officers, being acute smart asses and like all cops, having a well developed sense of irony, began referring to their black and white painted police cars as "black and normals". This led to even more controversy and of course the eventual scraping of a very effective control hold due simply to politically correct policy making. I can only assume that the NYPD outlawed it's use for similar reasons. Although I have no data to substantiate this, at the time, several medical researchers came out and said something to the effect that a large percentage of Blacks had carotid arteries located slightly behind where other races routinely had their carotid arteries. That's why Blacks tended to end up with crushed arteries, failed to recover, and died. I have no idea if this is true, but it's an interesting theory.

[Illusion]

Originally Posted by Mr Poo ↗

Watching it again, you're actually totally right about him not being out. I watched it on mute again today because I'm at work. He did look unconscious toward the end but was still saying he couldn't breath.

Don't get me wrong, his obesity likely played a big roll in it all. Maybe the combo of his heart already being under a strain from the weight, the choke out, then multiple officers knees on his chest and one on the temple was enough to do the trick. The fact that using a chokehold is not how officers are supposed to restrain someone by NY law, is the place I find an issue. If they were allowed to do it, it was just a tragic accident. If they aren't allowed it's a crime.

From an officers perspective how would they know if he really was losing consciousness from not breathing or was just still trying to resist.. It's a hard call from their boots, but that choke out should have never occurred in the first place.

Technically there was no choke out. The RNC is not an air constricting hold like the guillotine. The RNC involves the squeezing the carotid artery so that the arterial blood supply is slowed down to the brain causing the victim to lose consciousness. It's actually a painless why to go out. The guillotine however is a painful bitch because you're putting heavy pressure on the person's throat, causing a lack of oxygen to the brain..

[30564U]

Originally Posted by niknik ↗

I think the two cases are a lot different. In Brown's case it seems to me the officer did what he had to do for his safety.

But this one is tough. I realize the police are arresting him, and they have to get the cuffs on him somehow. But their own rules say no choke holds Sure looked like a choke hold.

Not that I think the cop should be arrested for murder for it. But being a cop surely you know how grand jury's work. A prosecutor can almost always return a indictment if they want one. Simply because the prosecution controls what evidence is seen in a grand jury.

It just looks bad. One dead guy with no weapons, five cops without a scratch.

I wish everyone would stop fixating on whether the fat dufuss was armed or not. It has less than zero to do with this case. Just because the hold wasn't authorized or taught by the NYPD doesn't mean that the cop broke any laws...remember laws are quite different that policies. Now, as far as NYPD policy goes, he's dead in the water. What does that mean? Well, his failure to use a departmentally approved compliance hold to subdue the bad guy, opens the officer to personal liability in a civil law suit...big time. When an officer fails to follow department policy and something bad happens then that officer can be held liable...in other words the officer has no immunity from civil suit as he would have if he'd used an approved hold.

Everyone bitches and moans about the reason for the reason for the initial contact with the bad guy. Once he resisted arrest and actively fights the officers, they can use any force reasonably necessary to affect the arrest. What does that mean? It means any force that a reasonable person in the same circumstances would use. What does that mean? It means a grand jury decided that the officers used reasonable force to arrest this fat asshole's arrest. What is the recourse going to be in this case? The officer will face a departmental use of force review and an internal affairs investigation...so he could be fired, but I doubt it. The officers will almost certainly be sued and in all probability at least one will be sued as an individual. The crux of the issue is, one more time, why did this idiot fail to comply with officers and then fight with those same officers? I feel strongly that the bad guy died of his own weight and prior medical conditions and there was no rabid racism going on.

[kellyhound]

the stress of the arrest and his poor health condition probably contributed to his death. If he would have put his hands behind his back and kneeled down he would be alive right now.

[tbone79]

Originally Posted by rob666 ↗

I dunno.

If you're a cop, and the 350 lbs guy won't comply, how are you going to persuade him?

The taser has killed people, striking him with a baton is going to leave a mark, so what are you supposed to do?

Use of a hammerlock on the arm and step on the back of the knee joint would have been the way I'd have gone with. I'd have to see the autopsy report, but I think the guy died from a swollen trachea due to the choke. He shouldn't have resisted arrest though.

[niknik]

Originally Posted by Mr Poo ↗

I've seen it done many times.. People let out a scream out of anger just before or as they are tapping out because they know they are submitted from a RNC. It's much easier to get air out than in..

The guy obviously had some sort of previous health issues, but that doesn't take away from that the officer used a technically illegal tactic.

If you can say, "I can't breath" like ten times then you can breath.