[philovan]

Originally Posted by Top Gear ↗

What?
We have thought, we can work things out, we can talk...an animal such as a tiger acts on instinct..

This is the ages old philosophical debate between deterministic physicalism/materialism and human causal agency. Philosophers have been arguing this issue for many centuries. If the universe is a physically closed causal system, period, then human free will and moral responsibility are merely illusions. If the mental realm exists independently of and may, in some situations, transcend the physical then they are real entities. Take your pick.

[Oswald2001]

Originally Posted by philovan ↗

This is the ages old philosophical debate between deterministic physicalism/materialism and human causal agency. Philosophers have been arguing this issue for many centuries. If the universe is a physically closed causal system, period, then human free will and moral responsibility are merely illusions. If the mental realm exists independently of and may, in some situations, transcend the physical then they are real entities. Take your pick.

There really is no such thing as 'Free Will' or 'choice' when you get down to the Essence of Things.

'Reality' just unfolds and we are merely observers...that often can't seem to resist senselessly thrashing around in a futile attempt to feel somehow relevant.


Although you are 'free' to try and exercise your 'Free Will' and 'choose' to believe otherwise.


There is, however, such a thing as "Free Willy".

[FuManBoobs]

Originally Posted by Top Gear ↗

What?
We have thought, we can work things out, we can talk...an animal such as a tiger acts on instinct..

Sure, we have thoughts. And where do those thoughts come from?

Here's something funny, we don't actually create our thoughts. To do so would mean we think our thoughts before we think them. That is impossible.

We can work things out for sure, but it all depends on how we've been educated and the experiences we've endured to learn from, and nobody has a choice in making those.

Just like the tiger doesn't get to choose being a tiger.

I know it sounds crazy but there is lots of good evidence that suggests free will is just an illusion and no good evidence that shows it exists...yet about 70% of people just assume it to be some fact of life. That's a problem. But it's great you at least read the comment. Thanks for being influenced to take an interest!

[bob351]

I wonder if he didn't act like such a pussy if he would have had a better chance.

[bob351]

I mean shit, if you end up in a tiger pit and have two choices, cower in a corner doing weird hand signs or start freaking the fuck out and start going ape shit to scare the tiger.

[cardsharksam]

Rag dolly Anna

[philovan]

Originally Posted by FuManBoobs ↗

Sure, we have thoughts. And where do those thoughts come from?

Here's something funny, we don't actually create our thoughts. To do so would mean we think our thoughts before we think them. That is impossible.

We can work things out for sure, but it all depends on how we've been educated and the experiences we've endured to learn from, and nobody has a choice in making those.

Just like the tiger doesn't get to choose being a tiger.

I know it sounds crazy but there is lots of good evidence that suggests free will is just an illusion and no good evidence that shows it exists...yet about 70% of people just assume it to be some fact of life. That's a problem. But it's great you at least read the comment. Thanks for being influenced to take an interest!

Yet it makes no sense to describe the situation that about 70 % of people believe in free will as a "problem" since, given that it doesn't exist, their thoughts and beliefs (including their belief in free will) are determined to be exactly what they are by the causal laws operating in the universe, and so couldn't be otherwise.

[jesse]

A cat playing with a mouse. Same thing. Just bigger.

[FuManBoobs]

Originally Posted by philovan ↗

Yet it makes no sense to describe the situation that about 70 % of people believe in free will as a "problem" since, given that it doesn't exist, their thoughts and beliefs (including their belief in free will) are determined to be exactly what they are by the causal laws operating in the universe, and so couldn't be otherwise.

No way, that's like saying murder isn't a problem because the murderer doesn't have free will.

It just means we can't blame them for making choices based on bad reasoning, education, environment etc. but it still matters that we try to change these things as they can have a negative impact on the health and well being of a society.

You're influenced to believe in or accept things. What you believe or accept will dictate how you behave. How you behave will have real world consequences.

Believing in free will is a huge problem because among other things it gives us problems such as blameworthiness and punishments that don't make things better, and can actually make things worse! Not to mention the whole religious thing and the problem of "evil".

[philovan]

Originally Posted by FuManBoobs ↗

No way, that's like saying murder isn't a problem because the murderer doesn't have free will.

It just means we can't blame them for making choices based on bad reasoning, education, environment etc. but it still matters that we try to change these things as they can have a negative impact on the health and well being of a society.

You're influenced to believe in or accept things. What you believe or accept will dictate how you behave. How you behave will have real world consequences.

Believing in free will is a huge problem because among other things it gives us problems such as blameworthiness and punishments that don't make things better, and can actually make things worse! Not to mention the whole religious thing and the problem of "evil".

What you seem to be missing as that, absent free will, everything is determined by the past and the laws of nature (basically the laws of physics). The entire mental arena is merely a realm of epiphenomena which have no causal impacts on the physical realm. Since the physical realm encompasses everything according to materialism/physicalism this means that the movements of human bodies (including the movements of their vocal chords which we call speech) as well as those of particles of inanimate matter are all controlled by the past and the laws of nature. On this metaphysical picture it is indeed the case that moral responsibility and blame are illusions, and the murderer (as well as the "Mother Theresa" types) deserves neither blame nor praise. Indeed the very concept of "deserves" finds no purchase in this world. I am not arguing either for or against this metaphysical viewpoint, merely pointing out some of its consequences.