[LadyCPlum]

Originally Posted by tarvin890 ↗

YOU ARE AN ANIMAL

You miiiiiiiiight want to specify exactly who you're directing your comments towards, otherwise you look like a schmuck.

[tootsieflowrslave]

Originally Posted by FuManBoobs ↗

No, that's not what I said.

I'm saying we should hold people accountable for their actions, but we shouldn't blame and punish them for situations that led to that behaviour which were beyond their control - the country they were born in, the culture, society, sub-culture, parents, social relations, media influences, socio-economic pressures etc.

We don't blame a shark for being a shark, but if there is one in your swimming pool it's best to take notice of it.

Depending on what kind of social system and other environmental influences you experience will play a key role in determining your abhorrent behaviours.

Would a system that lets people who commit acts of violence gain advantage see more people commit acts of violence? Sure.

But when we look at countries where the justice system is more lenient or more geared towards rehabilitation rather than punishment we also see a decrease in crime rates. If retribution was a deciding factor then I don't see how this could be the case.

A key example might be the death sentence states in USA. Those states that carry out the death sentence actually have HIGHER murder rates than those who do not.

I aware that punishments can be effective but from what I understand for the punishment to be most effective it has to be carried out as close to the abhorrent behaviour as possible.

Seeking "justice" can mean completely different things for different people. Meeting suffering with suffering is bankrupt in my opinion.

How would I do things differently? Change the environment to change the behaviour. Not having such a competitive market system where everyone has to compete for monetary gain and social status. I could go on but I only want to demonstrate the current failings in the way things are looked at currently.

Jeffery Dahmer, Rodney Alcala, and Brittany Norwood all had "normal" experiences in their respective childhoods and yet all 3 of the committed some of the most heinous murders in U.S. history. Conversely, there are more examples than I can list on one page of people who experienced a rough upbringing and wound up becoming well-rounded, responsible, and law abiding citizens.

Besides, how effective would a rehabilitation type system be toward someone who lacks empathy and enjoys their violent behavior. You cannot rehabilitate someone that doesn't want it.

Your argument against capital punishment is a weak if you are only using the metric of homicide rate by states using capital punishment versus those that do not. Here's why. Maryland abolished the death penalty in 2013, yet it has almost twice the homicide rate as Virginia. Washington state has the death penalty but it's homicide rate is half that of Michigan's, which does not. Texas's homicide rate is the same as New Jersey's and lower than New Mexico's, both states not having a capital punishment stature.

Internationally, this metric doesn't hold up either. Russia, Mexico, South Africa, Venezuela, Honduras, Nicaragua, and many other nation states have much higher homicide rates than the U.S., but none of these countries carry the death penalty.

Let's be clear on a few things. One, I'm on the fence about capital punishment. Two, making environmental factors the only or perhaps the dominate influential factors in dictating one's behavior ignores predisposition to violence and ignores the "nature" component of behavioral development. Three, I don't believe there is an effectual means to quantify your arguments anymore than there is to quantifying opposing opinions. There are too many metrics that need to be accounted for and most will not corelate. Four, human behavior is far too complex to suggest that establishing a socialist type system will answer everyone's problems and we can all go about our marry own ways. Socialism hasn't mitigated the staggering homicide rate in Venezuela, for example. Setting up a non-competitive environment devoid of aspirations of gaining social status has zero relevance in dictating how it's citizens will behave, especially when a totalitarian regime would be the only means to enforce such a system. People will always compete for social status and material wealth because it is human nature to do so.

The bottom line is that there is no simple way to eliminate the violent tendencies of human beings and these things transcend social status and all of that environmental stuff. Sometimes the best solution is to teach someone who violates someone else's dignity, wantonly shows contempt towards societal norms, and is a public menace, a lesson that is humane or otherwise.

Do you not understand that the victim and the victim's families deserve to have justice and that what you are proposing denies them this justice? Maybe the death penalty isn't the answer, but neither is a system that is apt to fail, putting non-reformed violent criminals back on the streets to perform their handy work on another unsuspecting victim.

While such systems may work in some cultures, that won't be the same case for all cultures.

[SCARLETXXXTREME]

Rapists, paedophiles, child abusers, and similar vile creatures would benefit far more from a good battering than a jail sentence and save the taxpayer a fortune. Personally I would have gone a step further and hacked his dick off.

[tarvin890]

Originally Posted by LadyCPlum ↗

You miiiiiiiiight want to specify exactly who you're directing your comments towards, otherwise you look like a schmuck.

they are animals...thats what i meant...

[tarvin890]

Originally Posted by LadyCPlum ↗

You miiiiiiiiight want to specify exactly who you're directing your comments towards, otherwise you look like a schmuck.

BTW schmuck is a disgusting sounding word
, if they want to kill the guy kill him the things they do to him are no better than what he was supposedly accused of...

[pappergangsta]

You take anal like a bitch
You reap what you sow! ;)

[felixhelix420]

I hate when that happens.

[FuManBoobs]

Originally Posted by tootsieflowrslave ↗

Jeffery Dahmer, Rodney Alcala, and Brittany Norwood all had "normal" experiences in their respective childhoods and yet all 3 of the committed some of the most heinous murders in U.S. history. Conversely, there are more examples than I can list on one page of people who experienced a rough upbringing and wound up becoming well-rounded, responsible, and law abiding citizens.

Besides, how effective would a rehabilitation type system be toward someone who lacks empathy and enjoys their violent behavior. You cannot rehabilitate someone that doesn't want it.

Your argument against capital punishment is a weak if you are only using the metric of homicide rate by states using capital punishment versus those that do not. Here's why. Maryland abolished the death penalty in 2013, yet it has almost twice the homicide rate as Virginia. Washington state has the death penalty but it's homicide rate is half that of Michigan's, which does not. Texas's homicide rate is the same as New Jersey's and lower than New Mexico's, both states not having a capital punishment stature.

Internationally, this metric doesn't hold up either. Russia, Mexico, South Africa, Venezuela, Honduras, Nicaragua, and many other nation states have much higher homicide rates than the U.S., but none of these countries carry the death penalty.

Let's be clear on a few things. One, I'm on the fence about capital punishment. Two, making environmental factors the only or perhaps the dominate influential factors in dictating one's behavior ignores predisposition to violence and ignores the "nature" component of behavioral development. Three, I don't believe there is an effectual means to quantify your arguments anymore than there is to quantifying opposing opinions. There are too many metrics that need to be accounted for and most will not corelate. Four, human behavior is far too complex to suggest that establishing a socialist type system will answer everyone's problems and we can all go about our marry own ways. Socialism hasn't mitigated the staggering homicide rate in Venezuela, for example. Setting up a non-competitive environment devoid of aspirations of gaining social status has zero relevance in dictating how it's citizens will behave, especially when a totalitarian regime would be the only means to enforce such a system. People will always compete for social status and material wealth because it is human nature to do so.

The bottom line is that there is no simple way to eliminate the violent tendencies of human beings and these things transcend social status and all of that environmental stuff. Sometimes the best solution is to teach someone who violates someone else's dignity, wantonly shows contempt towards societal norms, and is a public menace, a lesson that is humane or otherwise.

Do you not understand that the victim and the victim's families deserve to have justice and that what you are proposing denies them this justice? Maybe the death penalty isn't the answer, but neither is a system that is apt to fail, putting non-reformed violent criminals back on the streets to perform their handy work on another unsuspecting victim.

While such systems may work in some cultures, that won't be the same case for all cultures.

You can't possibly know exactly what experiences serial killers had that may have influenced them to victimize people. The same way we can't possibly know what may have happened in the course of a rough upbringing to make someone turn out "normal".

What we can say is that environment definitely effects behavior.

If someone doesn't want to be rehabilitated then that would need to be explored. There would be a reason for that behavior. If rehabilitation wasn't possible then obviously releasing that person wouldn't be a great idea.

Not all psychopaths go around killing people. If they did then we could certainly discount environmental influences but even some psychopaths realise that it's beneficial to them to cooperate to a certain degree.

The stats show that simply having capital punishment doesn't reduce murder rates. If it did, ALL the states that have capital punishment would have lower murder rates.

Those countries also have very poor rehabilitation programs.

A quick glance at the diversity in historical human conduct we see throughout time, contrasted with the relatively slow pace of larger structural changes of our brains and DNA 101 over the past couple of thousand years, shows that our adaptive capacity (via thought/education) is enormous on the cultural level. It appears that we are capable of many possible behaviors and that a fixed
“human nature”, as an unalterable, universal set of behavioral traits/reactions shared by all humans without exception cannot be held as valid. Rather, there appears to be a spectrum of possible behaviors and predictable reactions, all more or less contingent upon the type of development, education, stimuli & conditions we experience.

It has been found that environmental conditions, including factors such as nutritional input, emotional security, (Dr. Gabor Maté - In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts - presents an enormous amount of research regarding how 'emotional loss' occurring at young ages affects behavior in later life) social association, (The Spirit Level - Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett - The correlation between different macro-societal factors and public
health issues such as life expectancy, mental disorder, obesity, heart disease, violence and many other sociological issues were well summarized
in the book) and all forms of stress in general can influence the human being in many more ways than previously thought. This process begins in utero, through the sensitive post-natal and childhood “planned learning” adaption periods, (Tactile/kinesthetic stimulation effects on
preterm neonates, Pediatrics, 1986) and carries on throughout life on all physiological and psychological levels.

For example, while there is evidence that depression as a psychological disorder can have a genetic predisposition, it is the environment that really triggers it or not (The Structure of Genetic and Environmental Risk Factors for Common Psychiatric and Substance Use Disorders in Men and Women, Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2003;60).

I'm not advocating socialism or any ism. I would strongly suggest looking into the work of Alfie Kohn on competition and negative effects it brings with it.

Aspirations are fine, but competing for resources isn't part of human nature. Living in an environment of scarcity is what produces that behavior.

There are no simple answers, I agree but environmental conditions certainly are very, if not as important as any genetic predisposition one may have.

If beating someone is the only option available then I agree that beating is the option to take, but in our society and many others around the world there are far better options available if people would take the time to educate themselves on the alternatives.

Justice is something entirely dependent on how someone has been raised too. Some people would accept it's justice to have the offender killed, others imprisoned for life. Some may actually forgive the offender and ask for leniency.

People who are emotionally affected by an event are probably not the ones best qualified to decide the best course of action. We don't let family members of the victim or the offender on juries for example.

While some people may take comfort in punishing someone who has wronged them in some way I would argue this is almost the same as the offender deciding to commit the crime in the first place. It's a mentality of believing what you feel to be right without evidence to show it will actually have a positive influence, and sometimes in spite of evidence to the contrary.

I'm also not advocating putting non-reformed offenders back on the streets either.

Different cultures will require different approaches, but we can see the effects punishment has. There are plenty of studies available if you'd like me to source some for you? I highly recommend looking into Dr. James Gilligan.

[Lilu]

If this guy is guilty of rape? Then that stick wasn't enough i will have tie a live electrical wire up his ass, stupid moron deserve it

[exKitten]

Dude, this is "Documenting Reality." It's not an honors class in the morality issues of past and current criminal justice systems and the relativity of treatment of psychological disorders. Because DAMN.