[GRiZ]

Originally Posted by rob666 ↗

What the fuck are you talking about? Iraq was invaded, America picked it's government, and democracy wasn't forced?
Yeah, it looks like everything is peachy. ISIS just took out an Iraqi military base 20 miles from Baghdad, and would control the whole nation if not for American military assistance. Looks like the Iraqis have everything under control
The Iraqi people never asked, violently resisted occupation, and still would.

Somehow this is obama's fault?
What the fuck was he supposed to do, leave 200k troops in Iraq indefinitely it was bush that invaded, bush that said the troops would be home in 6 months, and bush that said it would cost no American money.
All for reasons that were complete lies.

This situation we have right now is a direct result of saddams removal. This is EXACTLY why Bush1 didn't take him out in the first gulf war, his successors could be far worse- and in this case the successors could well be ISIS, a Muslim extremist group hell bent on killing all of us at any cost, that are too extreme even for al quada.

So now what do we do with Iraq? Who is responsible for it? Just send troops back in indefinitely? Who's going to foot the bill for that?

You cant know for certain who is capable of committing more atrocities than the other. Saddam proved that he was capable of perpetrating any number of crimes against humanity and should he have come into possession of nuclear weapons he would have more than likely repeated his invasion of Kuwait and who knows where else. I am, however, by no means justifying the war in Iraq...

The problem with Obama is that he completely ignored every top military adviser when he pulled our troops out of Iraq prematurely. Every military adviser explained to him just how inadequate Iraq's military was and how incapable it was for defending itself. Hes also a huge pussy with a failing foreign policy and not enough balls to take action when taking action is appropriate and necessary.

[TheVrist]

He is still ignoring advisors, and in some cases rules of engagement.

[ralucagymnast]

Originally Posted by GODISNOTGREAT ↗

I wouldn't go as far as to say that. The Korean war proved that China will go to many lengths to ensure a Western power doesn't border their nation.

Yeah I know that; its just wishful thinking

[rob666]

Originally Posted by niknik ↗

Do you even listen to yourself? We forced freedom on them?

What you're implying is they wanted Saddam. They wanted to never vote, or have the freedom to have a voice. They enjoyed living under a tyrant, being murdered for even speaking of freedom.
Just because we made it possible is far from forcing them.

It shows you don't know the history. Especially of the insurgency that makes up much of Iraqs opposition. Who are mostly not Iraqis. Iraqis did not violently oppose America. That's false. The people who violently opposed American occupation were the insurgents, who now make up isis.
So ya, some people in Iraq wanted America to leave. So they could kill everyone who stands in their way of stopping a democratic Iraq.

What I'm saying is we had no business going into Iraq in the first place, it has been a complete disaster in every possible way, and a civil war ending in genocide is the only possible outcome in Iraq.

The biggest issue facing democracy in Iraq is the Iraqis themselves, because they either don't want it or have no interest in a Iraqi central government- tribal and religious loyalties go far deeper than any sense of national identity.

Sunni want to kill Shia, Shia want to kill Sunni, and the Kurds want an independent nation of their own.

You don't get it, Iraq only existed and can only exist in it's current borders under force. The people that inhabit it want nothing to do with each other.

You want to talk history? Go back to when the British ruled and go from there. Nothing has changed in the attitudes of Iraqis since then.

What is stopping democratic Iraq now? Why do the troops we trained and armed run from ISIS?

[rob666]

Originally Posted by niknik ↗

I wouldn't say nobody fucks with North Korea. North Korea is extremely isolated because of it's actions. One of the poorest countries on earth and getting poorer thanks to sanctions.
Not to mention the nearly 30,000 American troops we have stationed in South Korea. Oh along with approximately 1,000,000 American and Korean land mines planted along the border. The Korean border is the most militarized border in the world. America recently announced we'll no longer produce or use land mines anywhere in the world, except one place. North Korea.

North Korea faces economic sanctions, that's it. No other place on earth has threatened world peace to the degree North Korea has.

So I guess military intervention everywhere else is just a coincidence go try a regime change in North Korea, they starve and kill their citizens on a scale saddam could only dream of.
Let me know how that works out

[rob666]

Originally Posted by GODISNOTGREAT ↗

The only reason nobody messes around with the DPRK is because of China. If it wasn't for the North being China's bitch, we would have stomped out that regime long ago. Truth is, famine is widespread in North Korea. Cannibalism is most likely commonplace. Kim Jong-un is dependent on Chinese exports and agriculture. They wouldn't last a month as a truly independent nation. As a result, relations with China keep that rabid dog on a tight leash.

Furthermore, the North doesn't have the ballistics capability to launch a nuclear attack on the West. At best they would hit South Korea, and that's only should their weak, Soviet era technology be capable of making it past all the modern defense mechanisms put in place over there in the South by the US.

North Korea has been tunnelling under South Korea for decades, and Seoul is within artillery range..... It's said the first few hours of that war would be carnage on a scale never seen before. They don't have to be able to hit us, they'd be happy to wipe out the south....... Their already testing long range ballistic missiles, and have been trading missile technology for nuclear technology with Iran....... It's only a matter of time before they gain the capability to hit us.

[rob666]

Originally Posted by GODISNOTGREAT ↗

You cant know for certain who is capable of committing more atrocities than the other. Saddam proved that he was capable of perpetrating any number of crimes against humanity and should he have come into possession of nuclear weapons he would have more than likely repeated his invasion of Kuwait and who knows where else. I am, however, by no means justifying the war in Iraq...

The problem with Obama is that he completely ignored every top military adviser when he pulled our troops out of Iraq prematurely. Every military adviser explained to him just how inadequate Iraq's military was and how incapable it was for defending itself. Hes also a huge pussy with a failing foreign policy and not enough balls to take action when taking action is appropriate and necessary.

What military action should he have taken that he hasn't? He went into Pakistan to kill bin laden, he's killed more top al quada terrorists with drone strikes than bush ever dreamed of. How exactly has he failed at foreign policy?

Failure at foreign policy= going to war for bullshit reasons, with no exit strategy, or arming a side in every conflict with no regard for the future consequences of that.

This whole idea of blaming Obama for bush's war is crazy. Obama inherited an impossible situation, one that no leader could have completely solved.
You stay in Iraq= trillions to the debt! American lives lost, and further inflammation of the area.
He leaves? People blame him for the inevitable civil war that was destined the day saddam died.

[Oswald2001]

Originally Posted by GODISNOTGREAT ↗

I wouldn't go as far as to say that. The Korean war proved that China will go to many lengths to ensure a Western power doesn't border their nation.

The day will come when circumstances will present themselves where China won't have anything to say about it.

The world constantly evolves, empires rise and fall, situations change and no one can maintain the illusion of control forever.

[niknik]

Originally Posted by rob666 ↗

What I'm saying is we had no business going into Iraq in the first place, it has been a complete disaster in every possible way, and a civil war ending in genocide is the only possible outcome in Iraq.

The biggest issue facing democracy in Iraq is the Iraqis themselves, because they either don't want it or have no interest in a Iraqi central government- tribal and religious loyalties go far deeper than any sense of national identity.

Sunni want to kill Shia, Shia want to kill Sunni, and the Kurds want an independent nation of their own.

You don't get it, Iraq only existed and can only exist in it's current borders under force. The people that inhabit it want nothing to do with each other.

You want to talk history? Go back to when the British ruled and go from there. Nothing has changed in the attitudes of Iraqis since then.

What is stopping democratic Iraq now? Why do the troops we trained and armed run from ISIS?

My guess is they ran because they were not prepared to take on the task. Our President wanted our war in Iraq to end. It didn't matter to him the time was not right.
What should have been aired during Obama's pledges and celebrations of ending the Iraq war was he's delusional. Sure Bush's actions led to the war. Unjustly or not. But Obama was dealt that hand and decided to put his chips down and play. And his strategy was a enormous failure. I don't believe Obama gets to continue to blame Bush.

[niknik]

Originally Posted by rob666 ↗

North Korea faces economic sanctions, that's it. No other place on earth has threatened world peace to the degree North Korea has.

So I guess military intervention everywhere else is just a coincidence go try a regime change in North Korea, they starve and kill their citizens on a scale saddam could only dream of.
Let me know how that works out

Economic sanctions tougher than any other nation on earth. Basically crippling N Korea. You can't just brush off the sanctions. Before the new sanctions of 2013 the North threatened to strike America over the sanctions . What did America do? Pulled out it's pen and signed more sanctions. The North is suffering greatly because of them.

And I'd have to disagree they threatened world peace greater. N Korea can only threaten S Korea, that's the extent of their capabilities. And S. Korea alone could handle the North without America. What modern capabilities the North has would be destroyed within days leaving them to only shooting mortars over a border. Any war the North provacates would be the end of that regime.
The fact nothing militarily has been done to the North isn't proof of our respect for their ability. It's more likely we're working a strategy. You're also incorrect that they face sanctions that's it. North Korea has threatened America numerous times with war for what we are doing. They say you better not do that or we'll attack you. And then we do it. Because they may threaten us, but aren't capable of carrying out those threats.

And if they continue, I'd bet they will eventually pay the price.