[niknik]

Originally Posted by Ntwadumela ↗

I know, that is why I said NATO would act if Estonia is invaded but will not if Ukraine is invaded. Its also why I said Putin would never invade Estonia.

Its also why I said "Regardless of them being a member." The word "Them" was describing Estonia.

Yes I agree. No way Putin will invade a NATO country. He doesn't want to fight 5 or 6 of the best militaries in the world at the same time. Unless he's fucking really nuts. And he will invade Estonia with the threat of nuclear war if anyone interferes. But i don't see that being the case.
We are entering a new cold war, which is exactly why Hillary Clinton should not ever be President. She was the Secretary of State that did the entire"reset" button gimmick. And of course her fellow democrat boss who showed his incompetence during the Romney debate. When he stated " the 1980s called, they want their foreign policy back" When Romney called them our largest geopolitical threat. Hillary and Obama both showed incompetence dealing with foreign policy.
Relations with about every nation has dwindled since Obama came to be the most powerful man in the world. He thought he was going to make our enemies our friends. Instead he's made our enemies not fear us, and our friends not believe in us.
We still have more than 2 years of Obama.

[Mr Poo]

I'm wondering how exactly it is Obama's fault Russia is becoming territorial aggressive. If another president was in the White House what would he do different? Go to war with Russia? The sanctions against them is the most we can do besides arming Ukraine(which Germany already has) or going to war.

Hillary has a much more aggressive stance than Obama, but would she or even Bush choose to go to war with Russia? No American president ever has, and likely ever will. Our war with Russia is aka the cold war for a reason, is one of territorial influence. A good portion of our dirty work was done by the CIA without knowledge of the public. The entire Ukraine / Donesk Republic and Crimea is a similar move, not a full military operation just a KGB one.

People neglect to remember Putin was head of the Russian CIA(KGB) for years. He knows exactly how to manipulate, just as our CIA always has.

[ices]

Next President is Hillary. And she will fuck things up further.

[rob666]

Who gives a fuck about a civil war that has been developing on the other side of the world for the last 30 years? It's none of our business. The best thing for people over here to do is not get involved, this bullshit of policing the world when it suits our own interests is why we have almost all the issues we do.

[ralucagymnast]

Originally Posted by rob666 ↗

Who gives a fuck about a civil war that has been developing on the other side of the world for the last 30 years? It's none of our business. The best thing for people over here to do is not get involved, this bullshit of policing the world when it suits our own interests is why we have almost all the issues we do.

Hmm...I hear what youre saying, but isnt the saying "those who dont learn from history...are destined to repeat it"; Putin just strolled in and took Crimea; the events of 1939 mustnt be repeated ever again.

[niknik]

Originally Posted by rob666 ↗

Who gives a fuck about a civil war that has been developing on the other side of the world for the last 30 years? It's none of our business. The best thing for people over here to do is not get involved, this bullshit of policing the world when it suits our own interests is why we have almost all the issues we do.

I understand what you're saying. People often make this mistake in thinking. Because they don't think about the alternative. If America didn't form NATO and the UN. Or made treaties with countries to help protect their interests. There would be and would have been more wars. As many more countries would have been seeking nuclear capabilities. And building war machines. Which would start more conflicts than it would prevent. There would be literally hundreds of arms races all over the world. Also and most importantly, if America didn't fill that position of world police as you call it. Someone else would have.
I don't believe anyone has suggested we go to war over Ukraine. But Russia is breaking international laws. It's so easy for people to say stay out of it it doesn't concern us. But it's wrong of Russia to do, and we should stand against it. America should never stand silently while innocent people are being slaughtered. Nor should America ever stand silently while our enemies gain control of territory by force and threaten nations who cannot defend themselves.

[niknik]

Originally Posted by have2poo ↗

I'm wondering how exactly it is Obama's fault Russia is ing territorial aggressive. If another president was in the White House what would he do different? Go to war with Russia? The sanctions againsIit them is the most we can do besides arming Ukraine(which Germany already has) or going to war.

Hillary has a much more aggressive stance than Obama, but would she or even Bush choose to go to war with Russia? No American president ever has, and likely ever will. Our war with Russia is aka the cold war for a reason, is one of territorial influence. A good portion of our dirty work was done by the CIA without knowledge of the public. The entire Ukraine / Donesk Republic and Crimea is a similar move, not a full military operation just a KGB one.

People neglect to remember Putin was head of the Russian CIA(KGB) for years. He knows exactly how to manipulate, just as our CIA always has.

Well obviously if Romney was president we wouldn't look like fools. It may or may not be Obama's weakness and his very outspoken I'm not going to war tone. That emboldened Putin and lead him to believe America is indecisive and unwilling to take bold stances.
Hillary was fooled into the embarrassing reset button gimmick. Obama made it clear during his debate with Romney he didn't see Russia as a geopolitical threat. Fools the both of them.
It's not that we should go over there and do something. It's that Obama has shown incompetence, in almost all foreign affairs. He's so out of touch with the real world. And he doesn't represent a confident America.

[niknik]

Originally Posted by have2poo ↗

I'm wondering how exactly it is Obama's fault Russia is becoming territorial aggressive. If another president was in the White House what would he do different? Go to war with Russia? The sanctions against them is the most we can do besides arming Ukraine(which Germany already has) or going to war.

Hillary has a much more aggressive stance than Obama, but would she or even Bush choose to go to war with Russia? No American president ever has, and likely ever will.

Kennedy choose to go to war with Russia.

[ralucagymnast]

I often wonder what Ronald Reagan would have done under these circumstances; say what you like about Reagan, but he didnt take bullshit and he certainly wasnt afraid of the USSR when it was TRULY a force to be reckoned with. Remember his "Evil Empire" speech? Reagan upped the ante with his SDI and his rhetoric and that was when the "hardliners" were in charge of the USSR; Andropov, then Chernenko, then finally saviour Gorby. Theres no fucking way he would have dithered and wrung his hands and bottled out the way Obama has; its embarrassing, and not worthy of the US people, or Europe, or the world.

[kellyhound]

Originally Posted by have2poo ↗

People neglect to remember Putin was head of the Russian CIA(KGB) for years.

He knows exactly how to manipulate, just as our CIA always has.

He wasn't.

Putin joined the KGB in 1975 upon graduation, and underwent a year's training at the 401st KGB school in Okhta, Leningrad.

He then went on to work briefly in the Second Chief Directorate (counter-intelligence) before he was transferred to the First Chief Directorate, where among his duties was the monitoring of foreigners and consular officials in Leningrad.

From 1985 to 1990, the KGB stationed Putin in Dresden, East Germany. During that time, Putin was assigned to Directorate S, the illegal intelligence-gathering unit (the KGB's classification for agents who used falsified identities) where he was given cover as a translator and interpreter.

One of Putin's jobs was to coordinate efforts with the Stasi to track down and recruit foreigners in Dresden, usually those who were enrolled at the Dresden University of Technology, in the hopes of sending them undercover in the United States.

Despite this, Putin biographer Masha Gessen disputes the "KGB Spymaster" image that has been built around him and instead says that Dresden was essentially a backwater job that Putin himself resented:

Putin and his colleagues were reduced mainly to collecting press clippings, thus contributing to the mountains of useless information produced by the KGB. Former agents estimate they spent three-quarters of their time writing reports.

Putin's biggest success in his stay in Dresden appears to have been in contacting a U.S. Army Sergeant, who sold them an unclassified Manual for 800 marks.

Following the collapse of the communist East German government, Putin was recalled to the Soviet Union and returned to Leningrad, where in June 1991 he assumed a position with the International Affairs section of Leningrad State University, reporting to Vice-Rector Yuriy Molchanov.

In his new position, Putin maintained surveillance on the student body and kept an eye out for recruits. It was during his stint at the university that Putin grew reacquainted with his former professor Anatoly Sobchak, then mayor of Leningrad.

Putin resigned from the active state security services with the rank of lieutenant colonel on 20 August 1991 (with some attempts to resign made earlier), on the second day of the KGB-supported abortive putsch against Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev.

Putin later explained his decision: "As soon as the coup began, I immediately decided which side I was on", though he also noted that the choice was hard because he had spent the best part of his life with "the organs".

In 1999, he described the Soviet Union as "a blind alley, far away from the mainstream of civilization.