[K9Grip]

Originally Posted by Kanda444 ↗

that's the thing... they arent forcing anything, they are allowing the child to develop naturally. telling the child 'you dont understand what you're saying so im going to dress you up how i want' would be forcing the child. telling the child 'you want to be like that... go for it. i love you' isnt forcing the child.

I think by making her make a speech asking (to the rest of the world) "why god" made her that way is forcing her.

[K9Grip]

Originally Posted by Kanda444 ↗

that's what they are doing.... letting the child be how the child wants to be. they are simply raising awareness because most parents in America dont agree with them letting their child be who he wants to be.

they arent forcing the child.... far from it. the child is naturally developing just like we all did and is asking for their choices to be respected.

gender identity isnt about sex at all. it's about the child feeling comfortable with themselves and their bodies. my son has no desire to dress like a girl... his sister has no desire to dress like a boy. they know full well what they feel comfortable with, gender wise. why cant every child be afforded that?

I agree with gender non-conformity, but I personally feel they are asking her to decide what she wants to be, regardless of if they mean right now or in the future.

I have a bigger problem with the parents pushing her story to the world than anything else. There's nothing wrong with her/him feeling who she is, that's natural. but, I've seen parents push an agenda with their kids and that pisses me off. Example would be Jani Shofield. At one month old her father started with the schizophrenic diagnosis and what the vast majority of professionals see is a specific form autism and a genius. They pushed doctors until they found one willing to diagnose her with what the dad wanted her to have.

Anyway, off base - but I'd have to see way more of this kid and what daily life is like to truly see. My friends son is 10 now and he still likes to wear her heels and paint his nails, but he also goes to imaginary war in his heels and sparkly nails while saving girls. It's his thing, she doesn't make him define what is girl and what is boy. She makes to no excuses for any of it and I agree with her. With the media attention the parents have brought upon Ryland, I feel like they are defining her and not just letting it be.

[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by K9Grip ↗

I think by making her make a speech asking (to the rest of the world) "why god" made her that way is forcing her.

you mean the acceptance speech for a diversity award? that's forcing? i disagree if a child that young doesnt want to be in front of a crowd, they freak out and tantrum. you cant really force a child to give a speech. did their parents write it for him? perhaps...but why is that bad? if my child were in that position, i would help them with their speech if they wanted so they could convey the message they wanted to share. i see no signs of forcing anything on the child.. anymore....

his parents tried to force social norms on the child and it didnt work. they relented and accepted their child and are raising awareness for the issue in the hopes of change the minds of people like they were... who maybe wouldnt accept their child in the end and would still force their child into social norms they dont feel right with.

it may seem counter-intuitive to think that a child that young can have a grasp on gender identity but the science says otherwise. i will always side with science over people's opinions... and in this case, the data shows that children develop their gender identity very young. since this is the case, their development should be respected, i feel.

tnow, the parents here seem to be raising awareness about an issue that seems to still have major social consequences. they just want their child to be happy and respected for who they are. children make these choices on their own.

my son carried a purse with him everywhere when he was three. he loved nail polish, loved high heels... he was over that in about a month. it's fairly obvious that this child isnt just going through a phase.

[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by K9Grip ↗

I agree with gender non-conformity, but I personally feel they are asking her to decide what she wants to be, regardless of if they mean right now or in the future.

I have a bigger problem with the parents pushing her story to the world than anything else. There's nothing wrong with her/him feeling who she is, that's natural. but, I've seen parents push an agenda with their kids and that pisses me off. Example would be Jani Shofield. At one month old her father started with the schizophrenic diagnosis and what the vast majority of professionals see is a specific form autism and a genius. They pushed doctors until they found one willing to diagnose her with what the dad wanted her to have.

Anyway, off base - but I'd have to see way more of this kid and what daily life is like to truly see. My friends son is 10 now and he still likes to wear her heels and paint his nails, but he also goes to imaginary war in his heels and sparkly nails while saving girls. It's his thing, she doesn't make him define what is girl and what is boy. She makes to no excuses for any of it and I agree with her. With the media attention the parents have brought upon Ryland, I feel like they are defining her and not just letting it be.

that, i agree with... though i have a feeling that maybe the parents here are just trying to raise awareness, but im not sure.

if their claim is true that they sought help from doctors, then i dont think they are forcing anything. this seems far more drastic of behavior from a child than most children go through. i think it would unfair to assume that it's false simply because the majority of people dont act that way... but yeah, the media attention is probably the most harmful thing the child is going through.

[K9Grip]

Originally Posted by Kanda444 ↗

you mean the acceptance speech for a diversity award? that's forcing? i disagree if a child that young doesnt want to be in front of a crowd, they freak out and tantrum. you cant really force a child to give a speech. did their parents write it for him? perhaps...but why is that bad? if my child were in that position, i would help them with their speech if they wanted so they could convey the message they wanted to share. i see no signs of forcing anything on the child.. anymore....

his parents tried to force social norms on the child and it didnt work. they relented and accepted their child and are raising awareness for the issue in the hopes of change the minds of people like they were... who maybe wouldnt accept their child in the end and would still force their child into social norms they dont feel right with.

it may seem counter-intuitive to think that a child that young can have a grasp on gender identity but the science says otherwise. i will always side with science over people's opinions... and in this case, the data shows that children develop their gender identity very young. since this is the case, their development should be respected, i feel.

tnow, the parents here seem to be raising awareness about an issue that seems to still have major social consequences. they just want their child to be happy and respected for who they are. children make these choices on their own.

my son carried a purse with him everywhere when he was three. he loved nail polish, loved high heels... he was over that in about a month. it's fairly obvious that this child isnt just going through a phase.

Some scientists don't have kids and I think that in order to fully understand development, raising a child really comes in handy.


I just want kids to be fucking kids. Life is too short and you spend too much of it as an adult and adults have to define things.


This kid will now grow up with the media all around and that disturbs me. I'm glad you see that as not being beneficial, too.

I don't think you can tell if it's a phase or not until they are older.

[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by K9Grip ↗

Some scientists don't have kids and I think that in order to fully understand development, raising a child really comes in handy.


I just want kids to be fucking kids. Life is too short and you spend too much of it as an adult and adults have to define things.


This kid will now grow up with the media all around and that disturbs me. I'm glad you see that as not being beneficial, too.

I don't think you can tell if it's a phase or not until they are older.

scientists dont do studies based on their experiences... they gather data from parents and their experiences, then compare it to what the child themselves are saying. me raising two kids doesnt mean i know more about child development than modern science, which has years and years of documentation from studies done. if a child has any developmental issues, it's always better to get a professional opinion or many (like this child got) than to assume the parents knows best.

i thinks it's more than obvious that this isnt a phase. children to petition against parents, doctors and society about other things that are phases. the fact that the parents actively tried to change the child's mind and had the child see professionals tells me that this is more than a phase.

maybe im the only one but it didnt take me until i was 10 to realize my own sexual preference, let alone my sexual identity. is that common for most people? are most people that confused about their gender identity until they are entering puberty? seems to me like no.... but when a child does have issues, people seem to think it's impossible. i think there is a difference between wanting to dress like a boy and feeling so uncomfortable in your body that you want to be a boy... and i think a child is fully capable of feeling that range of emotions.

it seems to me that people's negativity around this case are on two topics:

1) the media attention, which i agree is not a good environment for the child.

2) the child's social ramifications for making this choice so young. this is an issue with society, not with the child or the parent. the child should be able to be how it wants without any social ramifications being considered. to me, it's a bit like when people tell me 'its fine if you want to be atheist but dont force your kids to do that. why would a parent want their child to go through the social struggles of being an atheist?'... and yes, i have been told that... more than once, sadly, and from family as well as friends. there shouldnt be social implications for how a child acts or what a child thinks. they will have their whole lives to change their mind... but when they choose something at a young age, i personally feel that it should be respected.

[K9Grip]

Originally Posted by Kanda444 ↗

scientists dont do studies based on their experiences... they gather data from parents and their experiences, then compare it to what the child themselves are saying. me raising two kids doesnt mean i know more about child development than modern science, which has years and years of documentation from studies done. if a child has any developmental issues, it's always better to get a professional opinion or many (like this child got) than to assume the parents knows best.

i thinks it's more than obvious that this isnt a phase. children to petition against parents, doctors and society about other things that are phases. the fact that the parents actively tried to change the child's mind and had the child see professionals tells me that this is more than a phase.

maybe im the only one but it didnt take me until i was 10 to realize my own sexual preference, let alone my sexual identity. is that common for most people? are most people that confused about their gender identity until they are entering puberty? seems to me like no.... but when a child does have issues, people seem to think it's impossible. i think there is a difference between wanting to dress like a boy and feeling so uncomfortable in your body that you want to be a boy... and i think a child is fully capable of feeling that range of emotions.

it seems to me that people's negativity around this case are on two topics:

1) the media attention, which i agree is not a good environment for the child.

2) the child's social ramifications for making this choice so young. this is an issue with society, not with the child or the parent. the child should be able to be how it wants without any social ramifications being considered. to me, it's a bit like when people tell me 'its fine if you want to be atheist but dont force your kids to do that. why would a parent want their child to go through the social struggles of being an atheist?'... and yes, i have been told that... more than once, sadly, and from family as well as friends. there shouldnt be social implications for how a child acts or what a child thinks. they will have their whole lives to change their mind... but when they choose something at a young age, i personally feel that it should be respected.

I'm pretty well aware of what science is. I may not be an Ivy Leaguer, but I've figured a thing or two out in my life.

I think a lot of people feel that once you define something or make such a public coming-out, there really is no return or changing it. And at such a young age, regardless of what science may say, and we all know science changes, that defining something so big can be detrimental. I'd rather have growing pains over something at the age of 5 than at the age of 15 + years. Life altering decisions at age five need to be made with extreme caution.

What happens if she decides at age 15 or 16 she wants to in fact be a girl? Doe she lose her diversity award and what will the media portray her as then? I don't think it's fair to place such a huge weight on a child.

Is it fair that society can treat people like shit? Probably not, I don't like it, but life ain't fair and we all have to live in society. She has to grow up with people who differ on things with her whether she likes it or not and vice versa. When you are "different" you have to grow up with thicker skin and learn to let things roll off your back.



I wouldn't be a good person to judge the puberty - sexual orientation thing with. As much as I hate to say this, but with my daughter - she's "at that age" and she's attracted to boys...but is more interested in what girls think of her. I'm thinking that is totally normal for girls, but I don't know for boys.

[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by K9Grip ↗

I'm pretty well aware of what science is. I may not be an Ivy Leaguer, but I've figured a thing or two out in my life.

then why would a scientist being a parent or not affect the data?

Originally Posted by K9Grip ↗

I think a lot of people feel that once you define something or make such a public coming-out, there really is no return or changing it. And at such a young age, regardless of what science may say, and we all know science changes, that defining something so big can be detrimental. I'd rather have growing pains over something at the age of 5 than at the age of 15 + years. Life altering decisions at age five need to be made with extreme caution.

i agree.. should be made with the advice of medical professionals trained in the area, which it was. the reason it's important to do it when the child is ready is because they will have to stick with that label through school, the time when most children get the harshest criticisms by their peers. the last thing a child needs is parents saying 'well, you are too young to understand what you want... it's best to just do what society does'. they need a loving person that supports them. that's what the parents are doing. nobody is forcing anybody to do anything.... except the people saying that the parents should support their child or let their child make up their own mind.

Originally Posted by K9Grip ↗

What happens if she decides at age 15 or 16 she wants to in fact be a girl? Doe she lose her diversity award and what will the media portray her as then? I don't think it's fair to place such a huge weight on a child.

that weight is put on children by societies that only allow for binary genders. some cultures have a third gender that is respected. in western society, we say 'boy or girl.... that's it. choose', then we flood media with gender heavy stereotypes. it's society, not the parent, forcing the child to choose a gender. the child will be forced to put 'male or female' on their school enrollment forms and will be treated like the gender they are placed in. consider if you're wrong and this child is extremely uncomfortable in it's own body and really is ready to make the choice it's making....what damage do you think would be done forcing a child to conform to things they dont feel comfortable conforming to because of social standards? it's like telling a 11 year old that they cant possible know if they are homosexual when it's very well known that sexual preferences form strongly around puberty, which starts around 11 or 12. gender identity, frankly, starts very young. this is a known thing.... so to tell a child that they cant possibly know what they identify their self as doesnt make a whole lot of sense, really.

if he changes his mind..... good for him. that's his choice to make. it's his parents job to support and love him, not force his hand.

Originally Posted by K9Grip ↗

Is it fair that society can treat people like shit? Probably not, I don't like it, but life ain't fair and we all have to live in society. She has to grow up with people who differ on things with her whether she likes it or not and vice versa. When you are "different" you have to grow up with thicker skin and learn to let things roll off your back.

exactly and the only way to fight against social norms you disagree with is to first learn to love yourself and be comfortable with yourself. if you dont feel comfortable with yourself and dont love yourself, other people's words will cut very deep. so, to force a person to be something they dont identify with 'for their own sake' really isnt doing anybody any favors.

if his parents show him that his behavior is normal and acceptable, he will grow up with that mentality. if he is told that he is too young to understand and is forced to act like a girl when he doesnt identify as one, they are instilling the idea that he is different and should consider conforming to social norms rather than being himself. that, to me, is heartbreaking.

Originally Posted by K9Grip ↗

I wouldn't be a good person to judge the puberty - sexual orientation thing with. As much as I hate to say this, but with my daughter - she's "at that age" and she's attracted to boys...but is more interested in what girls think of her. I'm thinking that is totally normal for girls, but I don't know for boys.

i can only go off what i experienced personally, which was me kissing girls and trying to spend time with them after school starting as early as first grade. i've been told that that is very early to start feeling the desire to date but for me, it was there... so i can relate to idea that a young child might understand more about their own sexuality than we'd like to think.

i also know that my wife's sister showed strong homosexual tendencies as a young child and her parents rejected the behavior. now she tries really hard to force the heterosexual persona but has admitted to me that she has sexual orientation problems. in my mind, i wonder what would have happened if she would have been allowed to develop naturally, without social pressures placed by the parent. i also went to kindergarten with a young boy that was always trying to kiss me and hug me. my mom used to say 'you went to kindergarten with a little gay kid' and i would respond 'how the fuck can you assume a kindergartner could be gay?'....i ended up going to high school with the kid and he certainly was homosexual and is now open about it. so, my sexuality was well understood by me when i was in first grade...my sister in law's was questioned when she was that age (which leads me to believe that her sexuality started to develop early as well)... and my fellow student displayed sexual orientational traits in kindergarten that accurately predicted his sexuality as an adult. that's not proof in my mind but does make me think that children and their sexual identity, as well as their sexual orientation, is something that is established very young in some children... not all, of course.

[TheVrist]

Cool, letting a kid be a kid. Turning it into a battle against social stigma?

Too early.

[Kanda444]

Originally Posted by TheVrist ↗

Cool, letting a kid be a kid. Turning it into a battle against social stigma?

Too early.

this, i agree with. i would have loved to see this child be accepted by his parents but not thrown into the media like this.... that's likely doing the most harm, i'd think.