[isharp88]

if guns are banned that leaves the crazies with chain saws, swords, bombs, etc. there is more than one way to kill a bunch of people. my heart goes to all the victims. soo soo sad!!!!!!!

[Impotent Rage]

Originally Posted by isharp88 ↗

if guns are banned that leaves the crazies with chain saws, swords, bombs, etc. there is more than one way to kill a bunch of people. my heart goes to all the victims. soo soo sad!!!!!!!

I'd love to see some statistics on the gun-totting vigilantes putting a stop to crazies. If it does happen, we don't hear much about it.

My heart goes out to the victims and their families. I wonder, since it's said that the publicity of events like these triggers copycats; will Westboro Baptists be the next target. It would only be fair.

[Rudebwoy]

^I think the WBC actually wants to picket the funerals of the kids. Its time they get SOME kind of punishment, since they haven't received ANY so far.

[Froctopus]

Originally Posted by SalemSaberhagen ↗

I understand that its your culture and you're used to it, and it doesn't make you bad. But see, thats the thing, Australia did it, the UK did it, NZ did it, and there was a decrease in house robberies, not an increase. That fear is unfounded. In practice, it doesn't happen the way you think. Other countries have proved the myth that robberies will increase to be just that; a myth. Besides, whats the point of the homeowner having a gun if the robber has a gun. You've got a gun pointed at him (or her), hes got one pointed on you. Its like a mexican stand off, and really achieves nothing because he could shoot you, before you shoot him. So then whats the point for the homeowner? Or it could be like when there was the well-publicised tragedy in Connecticut back in September where a teacher shot an intruder, then found out he had killed his own son. That's what happens when a person's
first reaction is to reach for a gun to sort a situation out. There is no excuse for having a gun unless you are a cop, in the forces, or on the land and need one to protect your crops from vermin.

I agree that many ppl that have guns have no situational training which results in tragedies like the man shooting his son happening. I personally would never shoot unless I knew who and what I was shooting at because it's a decision you can't take back. There really should be more education involved with owning a weapon. My husband and I chose to take several classes and educate ourselves but it's not required. I think it's hard for other countries as well as us to see each others point of view clearly because it is what we have been accustomed to and been around our whole lives.

My state has an open carry law where you don't even have to conceal your weapon, yet they require no weapons retention training whatsoever. Not a good idea IMO wih how many uneducated ppl there are already out there, lawful or not. (That is not an insult to any firearms owner out there but let's face it, a lot of ppl have guns legally and have no idea what they are doing with them.)

I don't know what is going on with the psyche of these people lately. I am hoping the police shed light on some kind of motive. It will never justify what was done or make sense but I can't even fathom a crazy reasoning for killing 20 kids. What clicked in this kids head to create such a monster

[Impotent Rage]

Originally Posted by Froctopus ↗

I don't know what is going on with the psyche of these people lately. I am hoping the police shed light on some kind of motive.

I don't expect much insight from the investigation. Remember: "I don't like Mondays"?

[Froctopus]

Originally Posted by Impotent Rage ↗

I don't expect much insight from the investigation. Remember: "I don't like Mondays"?

True! They did say that he had an entire room for his computers. Maybe there is some nonsense rambling or something on there. Probably will just add more frustration and confusion.

[Zambini]

Originally Posted by Impotent Rage ↗

I had to leave this thread alone for a while because I feel like my comments were taken as a stereotyped attack or insensitive, politicised commentary. I contest that I stated the situation would be more complicated in America due to the extensive land border with a relatively lawless Mexico; compared with the UK being an island. Political, well when should these things be discussed? I eagerly awaited a serious discussion following Aurora and it didn't happen.



The Dunblane massacre is something REALLY close to home for me and to use it as an argument for ineffective gun laws is ludicrous because this was THE INCIDENT that outlawed all handgun ownership in the UK.

By quoting this incident, you are demonstrating a crass, ill-conceived argument. It seems like you're just desperately seeking validation of your stance as opposed to digesting the available information and coming up with an informed view.

As I said before - gun control will never eradicate guns; NEVER! It's about changing the public attitude to weapons and seriously reducing their prevalence even within criminal factions. It does work and focusing on the 2nd amendment is as ludicrous as taking the Bible literally. Times change, sadly America still has a massive, vocal faction who still think they live in the wild west: well maybe they do but how do you begin to change that?

The shooter stole the guns, how are laws going to work if people break them anyway?

Tell us just how good those gun laws have been in reducing your violent crime:

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.
By JAMES SLACK


Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.
Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.
The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.

Britain has an even worse violence rate than South Africa (file picture)
The Tories said Labour had presided over a decade of spiralling violence.
In the decade following the party's election in 1997, the number of recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million - or more than two every minute.
The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:
The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.
But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.
In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.


The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.
Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This is a damning indictment of this government's comprehensive failure over more than a decade to tackle the deep rooted social problems in our society, and the knock on effect on crime and anti-social behaviour.

More...
Hindley on the Moors, a chilling snapshot that closes the book on 45-year search for young victim
Biggs WILL die in jail: Straw overturns parole board's decision to free train robber - because he's never shown remorse
'We're now on our fourth Home Secretary this parliament, and all we are getting is a rehash of old initiatives that didn't work the first time round. More than ever Britain needs a change of direction.'
The figures, compiled by the Tories, are considered the most accurate and up-to-date available.
But criminologists say crime figures can be affected by many factors, including different criminal justice systems and differences in how crime is reported and measured.

New Home Secretary Alan Johnson is to make his first major speech on crime today
In Britain, an affray is considered a violent crime, while in other countries it will only be logged if a person is physically injured.
There are also degrees of violence. While the UK ranks above South Africa for all violent crime, South Africans suffer more than 20,000 murders each year - compared with Britain's 921 in 2007.
Experts say there are a number of reasons why violence is soaring in the UK. These include Labour's decision to relax the licensing laws to allow round-the-clock opening, which has led to a rise in the number of serious assaults taking place in the early hours of the morning.
But Police Minister David Hanson said: 'These figures are misleading.
Levels of police recorded crime statistics from different countries are simply not comparable since they are affected by many factors, for example the recording of violent crime in other countries may not include behaviour that we would categorise as violent crime.
'Violent crime in England and Wales has fallen by almost a half a peak in 1995 but we are not complacent and know there is still work to do. That is why last year we published 'Saving lives. Reducing harm. Protecting the public. An Action Plan for Tackling Violence 2008-11'.'
The timing of the Europe-wide violence figures is a blow for Mr Johnson, who will today seek to reassert Labour's law and order credentials.
In his first major speech on crime since becoming Home Secretary, Mr Johnson is expected to promise a concerted crack down on antisocial behaviour.
He wants to set up a website to allow the public to see what is taking place in their neighbourhood, such as the number of louts who have been served with Asbos.
Mr Johnson is also known to support early intervention to stop children going off the rails.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2FFj0nI3H

[Impotent Rage]

Originally Posted by Zambini ↗

Tell us just how good those gun laws have been in reducing your violent crime:

You quoted the Daily Mail, hence, you loose.

Originally Posted by Zambini ↗

how are laws going to work if people break them anyway?

I'm fairly sure I said the laws would be broken and tighter gun regulations may or may not help but the pro-gun lobby in America will never accept or allow a sensible discussion.

I'm just putting this out here: In the UK, if you're the victim of a crime you can claim the criminal injuries compensation board and get a payout regardless of whether they even find the perpetrator. Crime is almost always reported or even exaggerated for compensation purposes.

Conversely, in South Africa; private "security" mobs are endemic due to the inaction of the state police. They hand out beat-downs, take protection money, many of the crimes in SA that I've seen reported are downright barbaric compared with even the worst of the UK crimes. You're relying on the UK's most right-wing rag, skewing reliable statistics from the UK against the relatively lawless South Africa. To someone who lives in the UK and has visited SA, this is preposterous!

[Impotent Rage]

BTW, I live in the one of the most violent cities in the UK. We have loads of gang violence that never escalates to drive-by shootings. If there were casually owned hand guns lying around gang-member's relatives houses then it would surely be a very different story.

Only the "professional" criminals seem to possess guns. There have been assassinations in my area but, (and let me be clear that I have no respect for these people), they are conducted by criminals who do a brilliant job at never getting caught. They are professional, precision hits. If the knife-wielding young idiots had guns there would be shootings every night!

[thorny007]

First of all just want to say were all thinking of you guys here down under, but since you're all talking gun control. In Australia, there's been one mass shooting since port arthur,where 2 died and 5 were injured. The Australian goverment did a buy back of semi automatic and high powered weapons, most of the shootings happening here atm are gang related and are black market stolen weapons,but that's not to say it cant happen again all it takes is one looney with the right connections. Americans can still have the right to bear arms but is it really nessisary to have military grade weapons unless you are licenced collector.