Go Back  

N88OZ Learjet Crash in California That Killed 4 

Current Rating:

Join NowJoin Now
 
  #1  
Old 12-29-2021, 03:11 AM
kellyhound's Avatar
kellyhound
Offline:
✝Mudderator from Hell✝
Poster Rank:10
e-mail
Join Date: Oct 2006
Contributions: 724
 
Mentioned: 349 Post(s)
Quoted: 5439 Post(s)
Activity Longevity
17/20 20/20
Today Posts
6/11 ssss73591
N88OZ Learjet Crash in California That Killed 4

Four people were onboard a Learjet that crashed and left a trail of fiery wreckage on a suburban street near El Cajon, the FAA said Tuesday.

The San Diego Sheriff’s Department said the Learjet 35A crashed shortly after 7 p.m. in the Bostonia area of unincorporated El Cajon as it was approaching Gillespie Field. The plane departed earlier from John Wayne Airport in Orange County.

Firefighters did not find any survivors at the crash scene, but no injuries or fatalities were reported from people on the ground. One home was damaged.

Neighbors described what looked like a bright light and then a large explosion. One resident said flames reached so high in the air, it looked like a "bright fireball."

Firefighters doused several small fires along a street littered with debris and downed power lines. A fuel leak prompted a call out for a Hazardous Materials clean-up crew.

The National Transportation Safety Board has sent three investigators to look into the cause of the crash.

An aviation expert said the pilot was apparently performing a difficult maneuver at a very low altitude when the crash occurred.

Test




Picture and Video Clip Stats.
File Type: mp4 111.mp4(1.14 MB, 348 views)
File Type: mp4 112.mp4(1.91 MB, 350 views)
File Type: mp4 113.mp4(2.77 MB, 337 views)
File Type: mp4 114.mp4(4.34 MB, 334 views)
Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to kellyhound For This Useful Post:
Azimuth, booboo2718, dropkic, durt, Hunted, itchy242, ride, sllugger, William May
  #2  
Old 12-29-2021, 11:04 AM
Otimebomb
Offline:
My Rank: PRIVATE
Poster Rank:9673
Join Date: Feb 2013
 
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Activity Longevity
2/20 12/20
Today Posts
0/11 sssssss13
Re: N88OZ Learjet Crash in California That Killed 4

Damn. Poor guy knew it was over.

Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Otimebomb For This Useful Post:
Azimuth, kellyhound, William May
  #3  
Old 12-29-2021, 01:37 PM
ride's Avatar
ride
Offline:
My Rank: STAFF SERGEANT
Poster Rank:656
So many choices now
Join Date: Jul 2015
 
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 316 Post(s)
Activity Longevity
14/20 9/20
Today Posts
9/11 sssss1116
Re: N88OZ Learjet Crash in California That Killed 4

Oops.

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-29-2021, 02:58 PM
William May
Offline:
♚ Legacy Gold Member ♚
Poster Rank:175
Male
Join Date: Nov 2009
 
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 1890 Post(s)
Activity Longevity
15/20 16/20
Today Posts
4/11 sssss7510
Re: N88OZ Learjet Crash in California That Killed 4

Someone on Youtube paired the audio transmissions to the ADS-B recording of speed and altitude, and played the result. Perfect example of a stall-spin accident. He actually has a stall on the left wing, then recovers that, and a second later, he stalls the right wing, and she rolls over and spins in. He gives a "SHIT!" the first stall (L/H wing), then another "Shit!" when the right wing stalls, and then a final "Shit!" as the aircraft rolls over and heads for the ground.

Like a lot of aircraft, Learjets are prohibited from intentional stalls by their crews, at ANY time. When I was being trained on a Cessna 150, my instructor and I spent an entire day doing stalls, learning what they felt like, how to handle them, and how to do recovery from the spin that follows a stall. But we did this all at 3500 feet altitude, and the Cessna 150 flies very slowly, so it was no problem. They just mush a little, and recover as soon as you put the nose back down. They are a training aircraft, and engineered to give very gentle responses when students screw up. (My flight instructor always said that Cessna 150's flew best when the student took his hands off the control yoke, and put his feet flat on the floor)
Learjets have angle-of-attack sensors, that set off warning alarms, lights, and finally a vibration and pusher system that gives you a hell of a shake when you get near a stall, and actually pushes the control yokes forward, to avoid a stall. Most Learjet pilots never actually do a real stall in the aircraft in the real world. They do them in simulators only. They DON'T do them when in-flight training.

I used to go on stall flights at our service center. (Nothing glamourous, just acting as portable ballast in the cabin.) The aircraft normally had between 200 and 600 lbs of lead ballast installed, to make sure the nose dropped after the stall, and the aircraft could be recovered. They also took one of us along, so that if by chance there was a problem getting the nose down, our job was to go forward and climb on top of the center pedestal in the cockpit, to add our weight to the forward pitching moment to help recover the aircraft from the stall.

I probably went on over 100 stall flights. Basically, if you did any work on the wing, such as changing a leading edge, you had to do a stall confirmation flight, and this had to be done by company test pilots.

There were actually small pieces of metal on the leading edge of the wing, which were called "Trip Strips". Their purpose was to insure that a stall that was entered in normal flight, would stall both wings at approximately the same time, so that recovery was possible.

These were installed per the directions of the engineers, set perhaps 1/16" above or below the very center of the leading edge curvature. We would glue them on with epoxy, fly the aircraft, and if the stall was OK per the pilots, then we would rivet them in place, and remove the tape or epoxy, and then they would do another flight to confirm that all was good. If the stall was bad, the trip strips would be moved a little to try and correct the problem, and the flight test repeated. Stalls were checked on 16 stalls in a series, checking gear up, gear down, different flap settings, and also checking that the stall computer was correctly adjusted for that specific aircraft, and would do the stall warnings and pusher applications at the correct time.

Sometimes, the customer pilots would go along on these flights, and the test pilots would give them a really good briefing on stalls and recoveries, and then after they had done the first series of stall tests, if the aircraft was not homicidal, they would have the customer pilot sit in the R/H crew seat, and let him experience stalls for himself. THAT WAS THE ONLY TIME LEARJET PILOTS WERE ALLOWED TO STALL THE AIRCRAFT. It could ONLY be done in the company of a company approved test pilot. It was ABSOLUTELY PROHIBITED for any flight crew to just do this on their own. (The ballasting for most-forward center of gravity was the crucial item that they did not want customers messing around with.)

Aircraft that have a "T" tail, like a Learjet, encounter a problem called "stall blanking" in which the stalling aircraft itself blocks airflow to the "T" tail, meaning the elevator controls become useless. You can pull and push them full travel, and get absolutely no response from the aircraft. If the center of gravity is not set well forward by ballast, then it is possible for the aircraft to just mush down in that stable attitude, until it hits the ground. There is no way out. The lead ballast ensures that the nose will drop, and that normal flight can be resumed. Several aircraft also had "Spin Chutes" attached, which were there to literally jerk the aircraft out of a spin condition, or make the aircraft go full nose down, so a stall could be recovered from. I only saw a few times they put a spin chute on an airplane, and they were normally only put on for flight testng when they added hard-points on the wings, for installing missiles, bombs, or target towing gear.

When a Learjet stalls, it rumbles and shakes, like being on a roller coaster just as you get to the top. Then the stall happens. It can stall straight, in which case drop about 1500 feet while you recover.
Or it can fall off on one wing, which was usual on the initial stall flights. Whether left or right, the aircraft would snap over and try to go into a spin.
In either case, it is like a 2000 to 6000 foot roller coaster ride. There were only a few of us who went on these flights, as you needed to be able to do all this and NOT get airsick.
We normally were at an altitude of between 10K feet to 12K feet at the initial stall point, so there was plenty of room to recover. IF it fell off on one wing, the test pilots would typically let it go to see just what was happening.

Stall-spins took from 3000 feet to 6000 feet to recover from. (Obviously, if you are at 1000 feet on final approach, it means you are going to die.)

The test pilots were familiar enough with Learjet stalls, to be able to catch them even as they were happening, and arrest the conduct of the aircraft.

But that was NOT the point of their testing. The point of their testing was to make sure the stall behavior was as good as it could possibly be, thus giving ordinary flight crews the maximum safety margin they could get to survive a stall event. Thus the multiple flights and careful adjustments. (Prior to a stall flight, we checked and adjusted all the flight control rigging to ZERO, so the aircraft would fly straight and level. (This was done after cable changes as well, and I am proud to say that we usually had a flight where the aircraft was "hands-off" on the first flight after a cable change, meaning it flew straight and level with the control corrections not needed.)

Reply With Quote
The Following 17 Users Say Thank You to William May For This Useful Post:
Assem06, Azimuth, bushbarbie, dropkic, durt, Hippygrl, Hunted, kellyhound, Not_real, Petitegamine, rahulmoddy, ride, rohmell, samueljones, terrence, voidinvocation, Yanni
  #5  
Old 12-31-2021, 12:27 AM
durt's Avatar
durt
Offline:
★ Legacy Member ★
Poster Rank:65
male
Join Date: Apr 2010
Contributions: 1
 
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Quoted: 4737 Post(s)
Activity Longevity
3/20 16/20
Today Posts
0/11 ssss19303
Re: N88OZ Learjet Crash in California That Killed 4

Good post William May, thanks!

Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to durt For This Useful Post:
Azimuth, rohmell, William May
  #6  
Old 12-31-2021, 12:07 PM
William May
Offline:
♚ Legacy Gold Member ♚
Poster Rank:175
Male
Join Date: Nov 2009
 
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 1890 Post(s)
Activity Longevity
15/20 16/20
Today Posts
4/11 sssss7510
Re: N88OZ Learjet Crash in California That Killed 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by durt View Post
Good post William May, thanks!
Quite welcome. Something I actually know about.

Stall flights weren't the only thrilling thing. When Terrain avoidance systems came out, I went on flight tests for those, too.

No stalling, but you had to literally fly into a mountain to be sure you got the warnings at the proper distances and times.

The flight test area for those was over the Willcox Playa. The Wilcox Playa is the last point at which the oceans over the southwest of the U.S. dried up when the land lifted millions of years ago. The area is completely barren. The military used the Playa to drop practice bombs on in WWII.
Anyway, the crew procedure was to establish a descent on one edge of the Playa, and continue descent as you approached the mountains that were off to the end of the Playa. The crews would monitor the behavior of the system and determine if it gave the proper warnings at the right time. So you WERE actually flying right into the mountains. By the time the system activated, we were probably only 100 feet off the Playa floor. When the warnings activated properly, it was full throttle and a quick pull up to clear the terrain. After going on a few of those flights, it occurred to me that it would be cool to go out the Playa and set up a video camera and record the aircraft as they passed overhead. But at that time, video cameras cost thousands of dollars, and in any case, the company prohibited any photography without approval, so we never did that.
Oh, well.

Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to William May For This Useful Post:
Azimuth, durt, kellyhound, rohmell, samueljones, terrence, Yanni
  #7  
Old 12-31-2021, 06:45 PM
Hogmann
Offline:
My Rank: CORPORAL
Poster Rank:1306
Join Date: Aug 2017
 
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Activity Longevity
4/20 6/20
Today Posts
0/11 ssssss383
Re: N88OZ Learjet Crash in California That Killed 4

Executing a circling approach at night is a difficult and potentially hazardous maneuver. The pilot of this Lear jet was several hundred feet below pattern altitude and circling minimums too. That's a recipe for disaster.

Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Hogmann For This Useful Post:
Azimuth, durt, Hunted, kellyhound, LERK, samueljones, William May, Yanni
  #8  
Old 01-01-2022, 05:46 PM
Yanni's Avatar
Yanni
Online
woman-hating incel
Poster Rank:13
Join Date: Dec 2016
 
Mentioned: 346 Post(s)
Quoted: 27170 Post(s)
Activity Longevity
20/20 7/20
Today Posts
11/11 ssss60667
Re: N88OZ Learjet Crash in California That Killed 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by William May View Post
Aircraft that have a "T" tail, like a Learjet, encounter a problem called "stall blanking" in which the stalling aircraft itself blocks airflow to the "T" tail, meaning the elevator controls become useless. You can pull and push them full travel, and get absolutely no response from the aircraft.

there was a recent skydiving incident caught on video of this happening...the skydivers left the fuselage but remained clinging to the aircraft, which disrupted airflow over the elevator(not a t-tail though); the pilot(s) lost control but recovered. i believe they also intentionally cut power to the left engine which exacerbated things.


Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Yanni For This Useful Post:
Azimuth, durt, kellyhound, samueljones, William May
  #9  
Old 01-01-2022, 07:09 PM
William May
Offline:
♚ Legacy Gold Member ♚
Poster Rank:175
Male
Join Date: Nov 2009
 
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 1890 Post(s)
Activity Longevity
15/20 16/20
Today Posts
4/11 sssss7510
Re: N88OZ Learjet Crash in California That Killed 4

I worked with a skydiver who had well over 1000 jumps, and he described all the antics that skydivers do when they are jumping.
(Not new skydivers, but with his experience friends)
He recounted times they climbed onto the top of the fuselage, they hung off the struts and landing gear, etc. basically trying to see who could manage the most precarious hold on the aircraft. (Because, like, what can possibly happen? You going to fall off? That's what they were going to do anyway.) And occasionally they aggravated the drop pilot with their efforts, and he would eventually shake the aircraft until he was rid of them.
This guy did a really good job of avoiding any skydivers. But you can see what a stall-spin turns into. The pilot is obviously pretty good, because you can see he plays with the airplane through different positions as he falls away from the skydivers, before he finally straightens up and flies away. I thought he might be having trouble, but his recovery of the aircraft once he gets clear was near-instantaneous, so he was pretty sharp. Those jump pilots were pretty nonchalant about getting rid of the jumpers. A lot of them were skydivers themselves, earning money to jump by flying the jump aircraft.

Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to William May For This Useful Post:
Azimuth, durt, samueljones, Yanni
  #10  
Old 01-03-2022, 12:34 AM
durt's Avatar
durt
Offline:
★ Legacy Member ★
Poster Rank:65
male
Join Date: Apr 2010
Contributions: 1
 
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Quoted: 4737 Post(s)
Activity Longevity
3/20 16/20
Today Posts
0/11 ssss19303
Re: N88OZ Learjet Crash in California That Killed 4

Lots of altitude, no worries

Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to durt For This Useful Post:
Azimuth, samueljones, William May, Yanni

Powered by vBulletin Copyright 2000-2010 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO