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US Now Second Largest Economy in World. 

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  #21  
Old 12-04-2014, 11:37 PM
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Re: US Now Second Largest Economy in World.

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Originally Posted by Mr Poo View Post
It's not a part of their economy because it's all illegal money and the jobs it brings turns people into criminals. You don't count that as contributing to the value and wealth of a society, it's actually the opposite.

Where did you get your figures for the Chinese Black market value?

But none of that has anything to do with China fudging their numbers to make them appear better. Their economy isn't actually larger than ours, anyone can fake the books..
I think he means once its changed from non-legit hands, and goes into legit hands.

Better known to us as laundry.

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  #22  
Old 12-04-2014, 11:52 PM
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Re: US Now Second Largest Economy in World.

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Originally Posted by TheVrist View Post
I think he means once its changed from non-legit hands, and goes into legit hands.

Better known to us as laundry.
All laundered money does get counted into the economy because it comes from a technically "legal" entity.

I've yet to read one thing stating the actual value of the Chinese black market compared to the American black market monetary value wise..

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  #23  
Old 12-05-2014, 12:14 AM
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Re: US Now Second Largest Economy in World.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Poo View Post
All laundered money does get counted into the economy because it comes from a technically "legal" entity.

I've yet to read one thing stating the actual value of the Chinese black market compared to the American black market monetary value wise..
China$261 Billion

Black Market Crime in China

Cocaine Price :$106.9 per gram (Hong Kong)
Ecstasy Price :$4.5 per tablet
Heroin Price :$66.9 per gram
Price paid to human smugglers :$50,000 to USA / $41,800 to UK
Human Traffickers Price :$6,100 for boys, $500 for girls
Marijuana Price :$0.8 per gram
Meth Price :$72.9 per gram
Book Piracy :$52 Million
Counterfeiting :$60 Billion
Cigarette Smuggling :$2.2 Billion
Counterfeit Wine :$685 Million
Drug Trafficking :$17 Billion
Human Smuggling :$2 Billion
Illegal Gambling :$93 Billion
Illegal Logging :$3.8 Billion
Movie Piracy :$565 Million
Music Piracy :$466.3 Million
Number of Prostitutes :5000000
Organ Trafficking :$47,000 to buy kidney
Software Piracy :$8902 Million ($8.902 Billion)
Prostitution :$73 Billion
Video Game Piracy :$589.9 Million
Wildlife Smuggling :$10 Billion
Total Country Black Market Value :$261 Billion

United States$625.63 Billion

Black Market Crime in the United States

Alcohol Smuggling :$34 Million
AK-47 price :$400 in CA / $500 in profit to drug cartels
Cocaine Price :$300 to $8 (UN) | $28.58 (User Submitted) per gram
Ecstasy Price :$35 per tablet (UN)
Heroin Price :$200 (UN) | $110 (User Submitted) per gram
Marijuana Price :$20 - $1,800 per ounce
Meth Price :$3.0 to $500.0 per gram
Counterfeiting :$225 Billion
Cigarette Smuggling :$10 Billion
Cocaine :$35 Billion
Counterfeit Batteries :$12 Million
Counterfeit US Dollars :$103 Million
Drug Trafficking :$215 Billion
Gas and Oil Smuggling :$10000 Million ($10 Billion)
Illegal Gambling :$150 Billion
Illegal Logging :$1 Billion
Movie Piracy :$25000 Million (25 Billion)
Music Piracy :$12000 Million ($12.5 Billion)
Number of Prostitutes :1000000
Organ Trafficking :$30,000 to buy kidney
Software Piracy :$9773 Million ($9.773 Billion)
Prostitution :$14.6 Billion
Total Country Black Market Value :$625.63 Billion

http://www.havocscope.com/country-profile/

One thing this don't cover is 1) un-documented, BM attributes, and 2) Pharmaceuticals, something China holds the BM on.

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  #24  
Old 12-05-2014, 12:21 AM
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Re: US Now Second Largest Economy in World.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVrist View Post
China$261 Billion

Black Market Crime in China

Cocaine Price :$106.9 per gram (Hong Kong)
Ecstasy Price :$4.5 per tablet
Heroin Price :$66.9 per gram
Price paid to human smugglers :$50,000 to USA / $41,800 to UK
Human Traffickers Price :$6,100 for boys, $500 for girls
Marijuana Price :$0.8 per gram
Meth Price :$72.9 per gram
Book Piracy :$52 Million
Counterfeiting :$60 Billion
Cigarette Smuggling :$2.2 Billion
Counterfeit Wine :$685 Million
Drug Trafficking :$17 Billion
Human Smuggling :$2 Billion
Illegal Gambling :$93 Billion
Illegal Logging :$3.8 Billion
Movie Piracy :$565 Million
Music Piracy :$466.3 Million
Number of Prostitutes :5000000
Organ Trafficking :$47,000 to buy kidney
Software Piracy :$8902 Million ($8.902 Billion)
Prostitution :$73 Billion
Video Game Piracy :$589.9 Million
Wildlife Smuggling :$10 Billion
Total Country Black Market Value :$261 Billion

United States$625.63 Billion

Black Market Crime in the United States

Alcohol Smuggling :$34 Million
AK-47 price :$400 in CA / $500 in profit to drug cartels
Cocaine Price :$300 to $8 (UN) | $28.58 (User Submitted) per gram
Ecstasy Price :$35 per tablet (UN)
Heroin Price :$200 (UN) | $110 (User Submitted) per gram
Marijuana Price :$20 - $1,800 per ounce
Meth Price :$3.0 to $500.0 per gram
Counterfeiting :$225 Billion
Cigarette Smuggling :$10 Billion
Cocaine :$35 Billion
Counterfeit Batteries :$12 Million
Counterfeit US Dollars :$103 Million
Drug Trafficking :$215 Billion
Gas and Oil Smuggling :$10000 Million ($10 Billion)
Illegal Gambling :$150 Billion
Illegal Logging :$1 Billion
Movie Piracy :$25000 Million (25 Billion)
Music Piracy :$12000 Million ($12.5 Billion)
Number of Prostitutes :1000000
Organ Trafficking :$30,000 to buy kidney
Software Piracy :$9773 Million ($9.773 Billion)
Prostitution :$14.6 Billion
Total Country Black Market Value :$625.63 Billion

http://www.havocscope.com/country-profile/

One thing this don't cover is 1) un-documented, BM attributes, and 2) Pharmaceuticals, something China holds the BM on.
Thanks I was looking for that!!

So China isn't the largest black market in the world as Nik stated..

The 20% of their economy figure he stated is also not true..

I knew he was talking out of his ass again.

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  #25  
Old 12-05-2014, 12:22 AM
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Re: US Now Second Largest Economy in World.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Poo View Post
It's not a part of their economy because it's all illegal money and the jobs it brings turns people into criminals. You don't count that as contributing to the value and wealth of a society, it's actually the opposite.

Where did you get your figures for the Chinese Black market value?

But none of that has anything to do with China fudging their numbers to make them appear better. Their economy isn't actually larger than ours, anyone can fake the books..
Money entering your country, no matter how it gets their has economic value. Entire towns exist around the world because of illegal activity.

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Old 12-05-2014, 12:23 AM
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Re: US Now Second Largest Economy in World.

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Originally Posted by niknik View Post
Money entering your country, no matter how it gets their has economic value. Entire towns exist around the world because of illegal activity.
All your figures were wrong. Maybe you want to post your sources because.. Look above ^

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  #27  
Old 12-05-2014, 12:26 AM
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Re: US Now Second Largest Economy in World.

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Originally Posted by Mr Poo View Post
Thanks I was looking for that!!

So China isn't the largest black market in the world as Nik stated..

The 20% of their economy figure he stated as well is also not true..

I knew he was talking out of his ass again.


Well, just to be fair, somethings we consider black market, china doesn't. They don't honor patents, they are legally able to manufacture, and distribute carbon copies openly. They have some of the biggest online stores selling globally counterfeited name-brand product, and to them its cool

So I'd say the bar is still close.

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Old 12-05-2014, 12:28 AM
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Re: US Now Second Largest Economy in World.

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Originally Posted by TheVrist View Post


Well, just to be fair, somethings we consider black market, china doesn't. They don't honor patents, they are legally able to manufacture, and distribute carbon copies openly. They have some of the biggest online stores selling globally counterfeited name-brand product, and to them its cool

So I'd say the bar is still close.
With all included it wouldn't triple their black market.. That's what they would still need to catch up to the good ole' USA..

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Old 12-05-2014, 12:37 AM
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Re: US Now Second Largest Economy in World.

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Originally Posted by Mr Poo View Post
Thanks I was looking for that!!

So China isn't the largest black market in the world as Nik stated..

The 20% of their economy figure he stated is also not true..

I knew he was talking out of his ass again.
Actually I was right. Vrist list isn't what I was even talking about. Is there factories all over America making counterfeit purses, auto parts, motorcycle parts, clothing, on and on? No. There is in China.

I'm not talking about the black market of money changing hands between Americans. I'm talking about money exchanging hands between nations, which brings in money to the economy that wasn't there before. In this area nobody competes with the Chinese black market. The global black market.

You going down the street and buying weed or pills on the black market isn't introducing money into America that wasn't there.

And America doesn't export large amounts of black market goods to other countries. China does.

Also, I said as much as 20%, based on estimates. Is this all over your head?

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Old 12-05-2014, 12:42 AM
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Re: US Now Second Largest Economy in World.

Amidst ongoing concerns about an undervalued yuan, growing Chinese military presence in the Pacific, and suspicions about Beijing-sponsored hacking into western computer networks, add this one to the list: China has been confirmed in its position as the world’s leading counterfeiting superpower.

According to a report recently released by the UN Office on Drugs and Crime entitled “Transnational Organized Crime in East Asia and the Pacific,” from 2008 to 2010 almost 70% of all counterfeits seized globally come from China.

For the US, the figure is higher: US Customs say that in the same period 87% of the value of counterfeits seized originated in China. Since the WTO estimates that 2% of all world trade is incounterfeit goods, the value of counterfeit goods imported into the US and EU from East Asia (the bulk of which come from China) is thought to be on the order of $25 billion annually.



Why China? The answer is intuitive.

China has become the world’s workshop: it is now the world’s leading exporter with approximately 70% of Chinese exports consisting of manufactured goods. Supply chains for most western companies now stretch into and throughout China, encompassing hundreds and thousands of suppliers who provide the necessary ecosystem for this scale of manufacturing.

The same ecosystem also supports counterfeiters, whether directly (leakage of product out of a legitimate supply chain), or indirectly (drawing on local manufacturing expertise and suppliers to set up illegitimate manufacturing sites). The reality is that by outsourcing to China many companies lose control of their own supply chains.

Add to this the burgeoning trade in counterfeits on the internet, where a quick search of Paipai, tradekey.com, and a myriad of other websites reveal suppliers offering to counterfeit brands on an industrial scale, and retailers selling counterfeit goods direct to consumers around the world. The pieces then fall into place.

It’s not hard to see this firsthand on any visit to China. Legions of tourists and business people have visited the new Silk Street Market in Beijing and marveled at the plethora ofcounterfeit goods on sale—many of a quality that matches the original product. Most large Chinese cities have their version of this market, which for the most part are conducted in the open without much embarrassment—they have become in a sense a tourist destinations in their own right. On a recent flight from Beijing the flight attendants discussed their purchases of high-priced branded merchandise at knock-down prices: “and the quality looks good!”

The Chinese authorities are aware of the problem, and periodically stage raids, seizures, and shut down illicit factories. In 2011 the Chinese government conducted a year-long enforcement drive, arresting thousands of suspected counterfeiters and closing numerous factories. This was followed by a similar effort in 2012.

But the scale of the central government enforcement efforts pales before the loose control the central government in Beijing has over regional and city governments, and the fact remains that many counterfeitershave successfully bribed or otherwise coopted local law officials into allowing them to continue to operate. In some cities in China, counterfeiters number amongst the larger employers as well. Meanwhile, the Chinese government itself is fighting the use of counterfeit software by its own bureaucracy, a fact openly discussed in the Chinese press.

The US and the EU continue to view counterfeiting as a “soft crime,”, relatively low on the list of law enforcement or trade policy priorities. Against the $25 billion in estimatedcounterfeit products imported into those countries in 2010, the EU seized a paltry $161 million in counterfeit goods, and the US seized $155 million. Counterfeiters who are caught infrequently face jail time, and as a criminal enterprise it is thought to be relatively low risk enterprise. Against real criminal penalties for drug and human trafficking (also covered in the UN report), counterfeiting looks a good bet—if you caught at all.

Addressing this issue will require a renewed focus by the US government on counterfeiting as a priority. Trade policy needs to account for the scale of the problem with China in particular, and the fact that in spite of enforcement efforts by the Chinese central government, counterfeiting persists on an epic scale. US customs efforts to seize counterfeit products need to be smarter, and better funded. More sustained efforts need to be made to address online sales of counterfeit goods direct to Western consumers. And yes, criminal penalties need to be strengthened to make counterfeiting pay.

Companies who manufacture goods in China also need to take note: the loss of control over your supply chain can be disastrous. The UN report specifically highlights the need for companies to introduce better and more secure technology to protect products and monitor the supply chain; the need for better consumer awareness and education; and the need to better police the online sales of consumer branded goods. Some companies do this very well; others ignore it at their peril.

Amidst the gloom there are signs that things can and will improve. Perhaps the most promising is the fact that large Chinese brands themselves are worried about counterfeitingand have introduced sophisticated supply chain tracking and customer awareness programs. They see themselves battling the same enemy as western brands that are counterfeited in their own country.

Legal enforcement of IP rights in China, while spotty, is also growing---recently Nokero, a small US startup manufacturing solar powered lights—won several court judgments and collected monetary damages from Chinese counterfeiters. Uncorrupted police and law enforcement officials in many cities and regions in China are aggressively pursuing counterfeiters. Meanwhile Hong Kong as well as many US and European cities are crowded with Chinese tourists looking for authentic Western luxury goods, well aware that the products they buy at home may be counterfeits.

When the perpetrators of the crime begin to worry about its consequences, there may be hope after all.

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