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*Update* George Zimmerman Shot at in Florida 

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  #51  
Old 05-16-2015, 03:44 AM
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Re: George Zimmerman Shot at in Florida

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Originally Posted by rob666 View Post
Putting a new charge on the list of options for convictions is completely different than feeling sympathetic for the defendant.

Why do they go through a jury selection process if what you're saying is correct? Why do both sides argue over things such as gender, race or the religious background of prospective jurors?

What you're saying is absolutely ridiculous.
If what I'm saying is do absolutely ridiculous, then why are you now making my point for me by bringing up jury selection?

The entire voire dire process is intended to minimize -- and, ideally, eliminate -- bias or prejudice within a jury towards or against any side of the case. Things like religion, race, and gender are often not the most important factors. Counsel questions also involve feelings about the death penalty, prior law enforcement experience, occupation, property ownership, whether the prospective themselves or anyone close to them has been a victim of violent crime, et cetera.

So in other words, the selection process exists to establish a jury that is fair and impartial because fair and impartial juries do things like presume the innocence of the accused, place the burden of proof upon the prosecution, follow the instructions of the court, and not just do whatever the fuck they want based on emotions or sympathy.

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  #52  
Old 05-16-2015, 05:31 PM
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Re: George Zimmerman Shot at in Florida

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Originally Posted by Metal Mike View Post
If what I'm saying is do absolutely ridiculous, then why are you now making my point for me by bringing up jury selection?

The entire voire dire process is intended to minimize -- and, ideally, eliminate -- bias or prejudice within a jury towards or against any side of the case. Things like religion, race, and gender are often not the most important factors. Counsel questions also involve feelings about the death penalty, prior law enforcement experience, occupation, property ownership, whether the prospective themselves or anyone close to them has been a victim of violent crime, et cetera.

So in other words, the selection process exists to establish a jury that is fair and impartial because fair and impartial juries do things like presume the innocence of the accused, place the burden of proof upon the prosecution, follow the instructions of the court, and not just do whatever the fuck they want based on emotions or sympathy.
The selection process exists to ATTEMPT to minimize an impartial jury, the reality is these are people not robots and as such vote as people.

Your point seems to be that juries vote based solely on the application of the law, and while that might be the stated goal, it's definitely not the reality of how the system works

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Old 05-16-2015, 05:50 PM
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Re: *Update* George Zimmerman Shot at in Florida

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Orlando Sentival via The Associated Press

May 15, 2015
Lake Mary, FLorida

A man who shot at George Zimmerman during a confrontation earlier this week along a busy Central Florida road has been arrested.

Matthew Apperson was charged on Friday with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, and firing a missile into an occupied conveyance, Lake Mary police reported in a news release. Apperson turned himself in at the police department Friday evening.

Zimmerman’s attorney, Don West, has said the former Neighborhood Watch volunteer had recently moved to another state but came back to the Orlando suburb of Lake Mary for Mother’s Day.

He was driving to a doctor’s appointment Monday when Apperson intentionally fired his gun into Zimmerman’s truck without provocation, detectives said.

Police recovered two guns from Apperson and one from Zimmerman.

Both men had their guns legally.

The passenger window of Zimmerman’s pickup had a bullet hole in it, and Zimmerman suffered minor injuries from flying glass and debris.

Apperson’s attorney, Mark NeJame, said earlier this week that the shooting was, "a good, old fashioned self defense case."

He said their encounter on Monday was pure "happenstance."

Zimmerman and Apperson were involved in a road-rage episode last September.

Apperson said Zimmerman had threatened to kill him after Apperson made a U-turn that put him in an adjacent lane, asking "Do you know who I am?"

Apperson decided not to pursue charges.

Two days later, Apperson called police to report that Zimmerman’s truck was parked near the disability benefits office where he works.

Zimmerman told police officers he had an appointment in the same office park, and no charges were filed.

Zimmerman was acquitted in the February, 2012, shooting death of Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager, in a case that sparked protests and a national debate about race relations.

The Justice Department later decided not to bring a civil rights case against Zimmerman.

Since then, Zimmerman was charged with assault based on complaints from two girlfriends.

In both cases, the girlfriends refused to cooperate and charges were dropped.

His estranged wife also accused him of smashing her iPad during an argument days after she filed divorce papers.

No charges were filed because of lack of evidence.

Matthew Apperson, who authorities say was involved in a shooting incident involving George Zimmerman, enters the Lake Mary Police Department with his attorney Monday, May 11, 2015, in Lake Mary, Florida.

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  #54  
Old 05-16-2015, 06:28 PM
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Re: George Zimmerman Shot at in Florida

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Originally Posted by rob666 View Post
The selection process exists to ATTEMPT to minimize an impartial jury, the reality is these are people not robots and as such vote as people.

Your point seems to be that juries vote based solely on the application of the law, and while that might be the stated goal, it's definitely not the reality of how the system works
No, it's the reality of how the system works according to your gross overgeneralization. You say juries are people and not robots, but then you turn around and say that all juries conduct themselves in the manner in which you claim. Yet I would expect that kind of uniformity from robots, but certainly not people.

Of course each side wants to create a jury that would be more sympathetic to its case. But in an adversarial system (like the one we have here in the States), the opposition also has a say-so in who stays and who goes. The intended function is to have each side balance the jury by opposing one another's choices in some manner during the selection process. For example, if the defense successfully seats a juror that is opposed to the death penalty, then the prosecution can try to seat a juror who is in favor of it. In many jurisdictions, counsel can also have a limited number of jurors stricken from the selection for no reason whatsoever.

Like the system itself, jury selection is an imperfect process because it is one that involves people. The law does its best to control for that, and the result is a system in which your assertion does not so universally apply. If you were correct, verdicts like O.J. Simpson's acquittal wouldn't be so singular and controversial because they would happen with much greater frequency.

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Old 05-16-2015, 06:37 PM
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Re: *Update* George Zimmerman Shot at in Florida

Most states allow both sides have a crack at jury selection hearings.

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Old 05-16-2015, 06:51 PM
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Re: George Zimmerman Shot at in Florida

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No, it's the reality of how the system works according to your gross overgeneralization. You say juries are people and not robots, but then you turn around and say that all juries conduct themselves in the manner in which you claim. Yet I would expect that kind of uniformity from robots, but certainly not people.

Of course each side wants to create a jury that would be more sympathetic to its case. But in an adversarial system (like the one we have here in the States), the opposition also has a say-so in who stays and who goes. The intended function is to have each side balance the jury by opposing one another's choices in some manner during the selection process. For example, if the defense successfully seats a juror that is opposed to the death penalty, then the prosecution can try to seat a juror who is in favor of it. In many jurisdictions, counsel can also have a limited number of jurors stricken from the selection for no reason whatsoever.

Like the system itself, jury selection is an imperfect process because it is one that involves people. The law does its best to control for that, and the result is a system in which your assertion does not so universally apply. If you were correct, verdicts like O.J. Simpson's acquittal wouldn't be so singular and controversial because they would happen with much greater frequency.
Verdicts like the OJ Simpson verdict happen much more often when the defendant has the resources to secure a defence team capable of utilizing all aspects of a defence.

The Casey Anthony case?

Arias not getting the death penalty?

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Old 05-16-2015, 06:52 PM
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Re: *Update* George Zimmerman Shot at in Florida

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Most states allow both sides have a crack at jury selection hearings.
The purpose of which is to.........

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  #58  
Old 05-16-2015, 07:15 PM
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Re: *Update* George Zimmerman Shot at in Florida

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The purpose of which is to.........
Balance in the verdict. However it is an out dated system all together. People today even under oath generally lie through the whole process. Some lie to try and escape the duty, some do it because they want to increase their chances.


IMHO they should dump it. There isn't as many "god fearing" people in today's society. Which just means, there is no heavy burden on a liar's conscience .

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Old 05-17-2015, 10:25 PM
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Re: George Zimmerman Shot at in Florida

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Originally Posted by rob666 View Post
Verdicts like the OJ Simpson verdict happen much more often when the defendant has the resources to secure a defence team capable of utilizing all aspects of a defence.

The Casey Anthony case?

Arias not getting the death penalty?
Yes, and that is the unfortunate result of the justice system in a capitalist country that has a history of taking it's capitalism just a little too far sometimes. But that's usually the case when it comes to "guilty" defendants winning acquittals like in O.J.'s case. The upside of it is that an innocent defendant doesn't require the same resources because the system is designed to presume innocence and place the burden of proof upon the prosecution. Unfortunately, that same dynamic also weighs the odds in favor of a guilty defendant who is wealthy and/or famous.

Also, don't forget that for every hot-shot defense team, there's a team of prosecutors who really should be more competent and prepared to go up against such a strong opposition. A lot of people thought that even for the mountain of physical evidence they had at their disposal, the prosecution in the O.J. case wasn't quite up to the task in front of them. The verdict there was as much to their fault as it was to the defense's credit.

I never said it was a perfect system. I just said that it's not the unruly Wild West landscape that you seem to think it is because it actually works for the most part. The fact that it's kept civilized first-world society together for as long as it has is proof of that. It's a pretty well-crafted machine designed to apply balance to its most imperfect component -- people.

Don't get me wrong, though: if you and I were to discuss right and wrong as opposed to justice, the conversation would go much differently. But any debate or argument about the justice system has to assume that justice is not about right and wrong, but rather about justice.

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Old 05-17-2015, 10:34 PM
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Re: George Zimmerman Shot at in Florida

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Originally Posted by Metal Mike View Post
Yes, and that is the unfortunate result of the justice system in a capitalist country that has a history of taking it's capitalism just a little too far sometimes. But that's usually the case when it comes to "guilty" defendants winning acquittals like in O.J.'s case. The upside of it is that an innocent defendant doesn't require the same resources because the system is designed to presume innocence and place the burden of proof upon the prosecution. Unfortunately, that same dynamic also weighs the odds in favor of a guilty defendant who is wealthy and/or famous.

Also, don't forget that for every hot-shot defense team, there's a team of prosecutors who really should be more competent and prepared to go up against such a strong opposition. A lot of people thought that even for the mountain of physical evidence they had at their disposal, the prosecution in the O.J. case wasn't quite up to the task in front of them. The verdict there was as much to their fault as it was to the defense's credit.

I never said it was a perfect system. I just said that it's not the unruly Wild West landscape that you seem to think it is because it actually works for the most part. The fact that it's kept civilized first-world society together for as long as it has is proof of that. It's a pretty well-crafted machine designed to apply balance to its most imperfect component -- people.

Don't get me wrong, though: if you and I were to discuss right and wrong as opposed to justice, the conversation would go much differently. But any debate or argument about the justice system has to assume that justice is not about right and wrong, but rather about justice.
I only got to the first paragraph before I did this

An innocent defendant doesn't require the same resources as a guilty one? If you don't have the financial means to afford a good lawyer, how is that going to be determined?

Over 95% of all cases end in a plea bargain.
If you think that OJ would of gotten off with a public defender, I have a bridge in NY I'd like to sell ya.

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