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  #31  
Old 06-10-2015, 12:35 PM
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Re: Cop on Leave Pushing 15 Yo Girl to the Ground & Pulling Gun on Other Teenag

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Originally Posted by Top Gear View Post
I have read the WHOLE story on another site and I am afraid I see no wrong doing by the cop, if the vid had shown the whole incident then the cop wouldn't be made out to be some nutcase.
He was initially on his own surrounded by kids that had already crashed a neighbours back yard swimming pool and caused damage then refused to leave, there is more to it but typing long winded explanations isn't in my repertoire.
Don't know if this is the one you're talking about, but is the whole story from the perspective of the residence, and witnesses to the events from the start of the WHOLE event, and not just a 4 minute video

^^ All that is a link. ooops

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Old 06-10-2015, 03:04 PM
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Re: Cop on Leave Pushing 15 Yo Girl to the Ground & Pulling Gun on Other Teenag

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Originally Posted by TheVrist View Post
the issue was how he took the girl who was walking away (she looked like she turned to address him...which is not a crime), tackled her and detained her unlawfully. she didnt break the law in any way and detaining her was illegal. if you were put in handcuffs for talking to an officer during an incident, i would make the same argument. police do not have the authority to demand people walk away from a place they have the right to be....then arrest them when they dont leave fast enough.

him pulling his gun wasnt an issue. he was in a crowd, he thought he saw a potential threat and he addressed it. in hindsight, different actions should have been taken but hindsight doesnt mean shit in a case like this, if you ask me. he responded fine in that regard.

the other issue is that the particular officer has had issues with his career in the past....he was sued for something that it's unclear that he did. the case against him was thrown out as the plaintiff in the case had an active case against him (because he was arrested by Casebolt) and was denied the right to file a claim until he could prove he was exonerated.

seems like this cop is by no means the worst there is....but he seems really fuckin unlucky.

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Old 06-10-2015, 04:57 PM
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Re: Cop on Leave Pushing 15 Yo Girl to the Ground & Pulling Gun on Other Teenag

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Originally Posted by Kanda444 View Post
the issue was how he took the girl who was walking away (she looked like she turned to address him...which is not a crime), tackled her and detained her unlawfully. she didnt break the law in any way and detaining her was illegal. if you were put in handcuffs for talking to an officer during an incident, i would make the same argument. police do not have the authority to demand people walk away from a place they have the right to be....then arrest them when they dont leave fast enough.

him pulling his gun wasnt an issue. he was in a crowd, he thought he saw a potential threat and he addressed it. in hindsight, different actions should have been taken but hindsight doesnt mean shit in a case like this, if you ask me. he responded fine in that regard.

the other issue is that the particular officer has had issues with his career in the past....he was sued for something that it's unclear that he did. the case against him was thrown out as the plaintiff in the case had an active case against him (because he was arrested by Casebolt) and was denied the right to file a claim until he could prove he was exonerated.

seems like this cop is by no means the worst there is....but he seems really fuckin unlucky.
If you dig around a bit, there are maps that show where this precise incident happened, it was still within the community's gaits, which can be considered private property.

Even if there is NO probable cause or concern for an arrest, when an officer grabs you, and you attempt to pull away, you're in a state of resistant, which in some states is a felony if with violence, most others a misdemeanor. If she was one of the teens that was previously ordered to sit, but later got up and fled with the other reported teens, then she could be charged with fleeing, and eluding. That is actually what had the cop in a running pursuit in the first place, he had already had several of them in a seated position trying to distribute cuffs, when some decided to be dicks and get up and run,,..

And none of that matters, in the case of what LEOs are allowed to do, they are in fact by law, allowed to handcuff and detain a person while an investigation is being done, at the officer's discretion. Being detained does NOT mean arrest. But they can, and do cuff while conducting positive ID, warrants, and current complaint investigations.
If the detainee resist, they are then in violation of obstruction of justice, an arrestable offence, which then leads to resisting an arrest, with or without violence.

http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/c...-detention.htm


Either Way, what is being ignored here, and by the media is what lead up to this events. Diverting attention from one wrong to fabricated, and, or enhance another.

If anyone should be held responsible, it should be the mother and daughter that turned this into one chaotic event. The reports to the dispatch were not just of unwelcomed guest, it was also complaints of violence. When the law shows up, sees an angry mob of people, it is only natural to respond in such a way. Especially when alone.

As far as his past, that again is just an diversion. You can visit any police, sheriff, pull officer's records, and most will have a tag associated with a civil complaint. Everyone these days run a cry about unjust treatment by departments, even when it is their own faults for getting themselves in the predicaments.

But now with that, the media up to their usual circus acts, and the race baiters, what fighting chance will the guy have? None.

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  #34  
Old 06-10-2015, 06:10 PM
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Re: Cop on Leave Pushing 15 Yo Girl to the Ground & Pulling Gun on Other Teenag

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Originally Posted by TheVrist View Post
If you dig around a bit, there are maps that show where this precise incident happened, it was still within the community's gaits, which can be considered private property.

Even if there is NO probable cause or concern for an arrest, when an officer grabs you, and you attempt to pull away, you're in a state of resistant, which in some states is a felony if with violence, most others a misdemeanor. If she was one of the teens that was previously ordered to sit, but later got up and fled with the other reported teens, then she could be charged with fleeing, and eluding. That is actually what had the cop in a running pursuit in the first place, he had already had several of them in a seated position trying to distribute cuffs, when some decided to be dicks and get up and run,,..

And none of that matters, in the case of what LEOs are allowed to do, they are in fact by law, allowed to handcuff and detain a person while an investigation is being done, at the officer's discretion. Being detained does NOT mean arrest. But they can, and do cuff while conducting positive ID, warrants, and current complaint investigations.
If the detainee resist, they are then in violation of obstruction of justice, an arrestable offence, which then leads to resisting an arrest, with or without violence.

http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/c...-detention.htm


Either Way, what is being ignored here, and by the media is what lead up to this events. Diverting attention from one wrong to fabricated, and, or enhance another.

If anyone should be held responsible, it should be the mother and daughter that turned this into one chaotic event. The reports to the dispatch were not just of unwelcomed guest, it was also complaints of violence. When the law shows up, sees an angry mob of people, it is only natural to respond in such a way. Especially when alone.

As far as his past, that again is just an diversion. You can visit any police, sheriff, pull officer's records, and most will have a tag associated with a civil complaint. Everyone these days run a cry about unjust treatment by departments, even when it is their own faults for getting themselves in the predicaments.

But now with that, the media up to their usual circus acts, and the race baiters, what fighting chance will the guy have? None.
i agree that the media fucked this case up for sure.....as they do nearly everything else. never forget, the media in the US doesnt provide the news or honest information, it sells sensationalism and doesnt really care who gets run over in the process. his past being brought up is bullshit. i saw that and posted it because it has relevance...but i didnt frame it like i found it, which was 'cop in question previous sued for racial profiling, sexual assault'. that's true, however, it's vital to mention that the case was thrown out and no charges were filed. the media left that bit out...on purpose and that's some fucked up bullshit.

like i said, i didnt see any reason for him to get in trouble (like i said, perhaps a slap on the wrist...meaning a 'goddamit....well, go do security for prison transfers for a few weeks until this shit blows over' kind of thing...to move him away from where the media can attack). i understand why he pulled his weapon. there was no real reason to detain her though.

he told bystanders to 'get the fuck gone'....the young girl in question turned and addressed him and he goes 'you know what?', grabs her and tries to detain her. there was no reason at that point to detain a person simply for addressing an officer or for failing to leave as expediently as the officer would have liked.

here's where i misspoke...when i said it was 'illegal', it was...kinda...had she known her rights. the issue was, she resisted. he had no legal reason to detain her even per the site you posted (it said 'Reasonable suspicion means that there were objectively reasonable circumstances to suspect that the detained individual was involved in, or was about to be involved in a crime')...and had the officer had a legal reason to detain her, he would have had to do so prior to telling her to leave (since it wouldnt make any sense to allow a person to leave the scene only to suddenly consider them a 'suspect' once they address the officer in a manner he didnt like. no crime was committed in the interim, to my knowledge, that would have caused her to be stopped).

once he grabs her, she is being 'detained' not 'arrested'. at that time, when being detained, she made an error that made his actions go from 'misconduct' to 'legal'....she tried to resist. now he has a reason to detain her as she is trying to resist the original detention.

had she known her rights, this is how her case could have been handled:


he grabs her ....she asks 'am i being arrested? am i free to go?'....he either gives her a reason for him detaining her and if he has a legit reason, he can hold her for a short period of time during which she is allowed to remain silent and if he doesnt have a reason to detain her, he has to come up with a reason to arrest her or has to let her go (which is what he wanted her to do originally). if he ended up detaining her and not giving a reason and she hadnt resisted and she had verbally asked to leave but was not allowed, it would have been illegal. her poor actions made the detention legal, not his.

had she done that and had he still held her or treated her like he did, she'd have a very strong case....but, instead, she didnt know her rights and panicked, tried to fight her way out and ended up making his action legal.

remember, detention is legal when it's done because there is a reasonable suspicion that the person being detained could be committing a crime....and if the choice is made to detain a person, the officer has a reasonable (the site you posted said 20 mins or so) amount of time to either turn up a reason to arrest the person or to allow the person to go. the catch is, the person has to ask if they are free to leave. if you dont ask to leave, the cop is not obligated to tell you that you are free to go. at that point, you are 'voluntarily' allowing yourself to be detained. you have to verbally ask to leave. (source)

the ACLU advises:

Quote:
Q: What if law enforcement officers stop me on the street?
A: You do not have to answer any questions. You can say, “I do
not want to talk to you” and walk away calmly. Or, if you do not
feel comfortable doing that, you can ask if you are free to go. If
the answer is yes, you can consider just walking away. Do not
run from the officer. If the officer says you are not under
arrest, but you are not free to go, then you are being detained.
Being detained is not the same as being arrested, though an
arrest could follow. The police can pat down the outside of
your clothing only if they have “reasonable suspicion” (i.e., an
objective reason to suspect) that you might be armed and dangerous.
If they search any more than this, say clearly, “I do not
consent to a search.” If they keep searching anyway, do not
physically resist them. You do not need to answer any questions
if you are detained or arrested, except that the police may ask
for your name once you have been detained, and you can be
arrested in some states for refusing to provide it.
long story short, you're absolutely right that it was a legal detention....it's just questionable as to if it would have been legal had she known her rights and had she acted properly (though....all things considered....had she known her rights, she likely would have walked away when asked or just stood there and watched silently, then not resisted when she got detained).

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  #35  
Old 06-10-2015, 06:21 PM
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Re: Cop on Leave Pushing 15 Yo Girl to the Ground & Pulling Gun on Other Teenag

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVrist View Post
If you dig around a bit, there are maps that show where this precise incident happened, it was still within the community's gaits, which can be considered private property.

Even if there is NO probable cause or concern for an arrest, when an officer grabs you, and you attempt to pull away, you're in a state of resistant, which in some states is a felony if with violence, most others a misdemeanor. If she was one of the teens that was previously ordered to sit, but later got up and fled with the other reported teens, then she could be charged with fleeing, and eluding. That is actually what had the cop in a running pursuit in the first place, he had already had several of them in a seated position trying to distribute cuffs, when some decided to be dicks and get up and run,,..

And none of that matters, in the case of what LEOs are allowed to do, they are in fact by law, allowed to handcuff and detain a person while an investigation is being done, at the officer's discretion. Being detained does NOT mean arrest. But they can, and do cuff while conducting positive ID, warrants, and current complaint investigations.
If the detainee resist, they are then in violation of obstruction of justice, an arrestable offence, which then leads to resisting an arrest, with or without violence.

http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/c...-detention.htm


Either Way, what is being ignored here, and by the media is what lead up to this events. Diverting attention from one wrong to fabricated, and, or enhance another.

If anyone should be held responsible, it should be the mother and daughter that turned this into one chaotic event. The reports to the dispatch were not just of unwelcomed guest, it was also complaints of violence. When the law shows up, sees an angry mob of people, it is only natural to respond in such a way. Especially when alone.

As far as his past, that again is just an diversion. You can visit any police, sheriff, pull officer's records, and most will have a tag associated with a civil complaint. Everyone these days run a cry about unjust treatment by departments, even when it is their own faults for getting themselves in the predicaments.

But now with that, the media up to their usual circus acts, and the race baiters, what fighting chance will the guy have? None.
also, thank you for being pleasant as always with these kinds of debates. you are one of my favorite people to discuss these kinds of topics with on this site and i feel like credit should be given where it's due. i appreciate being able to have a conversation or a debate without being called a 'cunt' at some point and that doesnt happen much....so thank you for that.

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Old 06-10-2015, 06:34 PM
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Re: Cop on Leave Pushing 15 Yo Girl to the Ground & Pulling Gun on Other Teenag

It seems the blacks never feel they need to listen to anyone.

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  #37  
Old 06-10-2015, 06:53 PM
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Re: Cop on Leave Pushing 15 Yo Girl to the Ground & Pulling Gun on Other Teenag

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Originally Posted by Kanda444 View Post
i agree that the media fucked this case up for sure.....as they do nearly everything else. never forget, the media in the US doesnt provide the news or honest information, it sells sensationalism and doesnt really care who gets run over in the process. his past being brought up is bullshit. i saw that and posted it because it has relevance...but i didnt frame it like i found it, which was 'cop in question previous sued for racial profiling, sexual assault'. that's true, however, it's vital to mention that the case was thrown out and no charges were filed. the media left that bit out...on purpose and that's some fucked up bullshit.

like i said, i didnt see any reason for him to get in trouble (like i said, perhaps a slap on the wrist...meaning a 'goddamit....well, go do security for prison transfers for a few weeks until this shit blows over' kind of thing...to move him away from where the media can attack). i understand why he pulled his weapon. there was no real reason to detain her though.

he told bystanders to 'get the fuck gone'....the young girl in question turned and addressed him and he goes 'you know what?', grabs her and tries to detain her. there was no reason at that point to detain a person simply for addressing an officer or for failing to leave as expediently as the officer would have liked.

here's where i misspoke...when i said it was 'illegal', it was...kinda...had she known her rights. the issue was, she resisted. he had no legal reason to detain her even per the site you posted (it said 'Reasonable suspicion means that there were objectively reasonable circumstances to suspect that the detained individual was involved in, or was about to be involved in a crime')...and had the officer had a legal reason to detain her, he would have had to do so prior to telling her to leave (since it wouldnt make any sense to allow a person to leave the scene only to suddenly consider them a 'suspect' once they address the officer in a manner he didnt like. no crime was committed in the interim, to my knowledge, that would have caused her to be stopped).

once he grabs her, she is being 'detained' not 'arrested'. at that time, when being detained, she made an error that made his actions go from 'misconduct' to 'legal'....she tried to resist. now he has a reason to detain her as she is trying to resist the original detention.

had she known her rights, this is how her case could have been handled:


he grabs her ....she asks 'am i being arrested? am i free to go?'....he either gives her a reason for him detaining her and if he has a legit reason, he can hold her for a short period of time during which she is allowed to remain silent and if he doesnt have a reason to detain her, he has to come up with a reason to arrest her or has to let her go (which is what he wanted her to do originally). if he ended up detaining her and not giving a reason and she hadnt resisted and she had verbally asked to leave but was not allowed, it would have been illegal. her poor actions made the detention legal, not his.

had she done that and had he still held her or treated her like he did, she'd have a very strong case....but, instead, she didnt know her rights and panicked, tried to fight her way out and ended up making his action legal.

remember, detention is legal when it's done because there is a reasonable suspicion that the person being detained could be committing a crime....and if the choice is made to detain a person, the officer has a reasonable (the site you posted said 20 mins or so) amount of time to either turn up a reason to arrest the person or to allow the person to go. the catch is, the person has to ask if they are free to leave. if you dont ask to leave, the cop is not obligated to tell you that you are free to go. at that point, you are 'voluntarily' allowing yourself to be detained. you have to verbally ask to leave. (source)

the ACLU advises:



long story short, you're absolutely right that it was a legal detention....it's just questionable as to if it would have been legal had she known her rights and had she acted properly (though....all things considered....had she known her rights, she likely would have walked away when asked or just stood there and watched silently, then not resisted when she got detained).
I'm just in the frame of mind, if the kids, had just simply respected the officer(s) from the get-go, none of this would happen. It is in my opinion just an additional sad case of how our society, and newer generations are coming up with lack of just general respect for authority. I will admit as well, our law enforcement have been driven to become socially dicks, but who wouldn't when face to face on a daily basis with people who are now displaying this lack of mutual respect?

I lay no fault in kids being kids, when I was 14, we had a similar experience. Damn near my entire football team and myself snuck into a private community pool, was having a blast, eventually the law showed, and sure, a handful tottered off (fast running backs) the ones that got caught were instantly "yes sir, no sir" and it was over. It wasn't a white/black thing outcome either, me and I believe 5 others were visually white, the rest black, and they showed the same respect.

Isn't a racial thing, it's really turning into an issue of entitlement, social respect, or lack there of, for other people in our communities. When I see shit like this, and the media, we're not fixing the core problem, we're just enabling a growing problem.


Anyway, rants off,
Thanks for the compliment, the feelings are of course mutual. I disassociate personal feelings when I get into debates, or discussions with people online. I engage them with hindsight that we all come from different walks of life, so opinions will obviously differ. I don't believe we should waste emotions here either, since nothing we say, no matter how big of a fit we pitch, will make a significant enough change to calm our tits. .

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  #38  
Old 06-10-2015, 07:49 PM
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Re: Cop on Leave Pushing 15 Yo Girl to the Ground & Pulling Gun on Other Teenag

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVrist View Post
I'm just in the frame of mind, if the kids, had just simply respected the officer(s) from the get-go, none of this would happen. It is in my opinion just an additional sad case of how our society, and newer generations are coming up with lack of just general respect for authority. I will admit as well, our law enforcement have been driven to become socially dicks, but who wouldn't when face to face on a daily basis with people who are now displaying this lack of mutual respect?

I lay no fault in kids being kids, when I was 14, we had a similar experience. Damn near my entire football team and myself snuck into a private community pool, was having a blast, eventually the law showed, and sure, a handful tottered off (fast running backs) the ones that got caught were instantly "yes sir, no sir" and it was over. It wasn't a white/black thing outcome either, me and I believe 5 others were visually white, the rest black, and they showed the same respect.

Isn't a racial thing, it's really turning into an issue of entitlement, social respect, or lack there of, for other people in our communities. When I see shit like this, and the media, we're not fixing the core problem, we're just enabling a growing problem.


Anyway, rants off,
Thanks for the compliment, the feelings are of course mutual. I disassociate personal feelings when I get into debates, or discussions with people online. I engage them with hindsight that we all come from different walks of life, so opinions will obviously differ. I don't believe we should waste emotions here either, since nothing we say, no matter how big of a fit we pitch, will make a significant enough change to calm our tits. .
i agree 100%! i've had some really shitty experiences with police (including one where they claimed i ran from them, claimed they saw me going for a weapon and held me at gun point i didnt do any of that shit) and when that happens, it sucks....but the worst thing a person can do is think that they are going to be able to argue their way out of that situation. even if the cop is in the wrong, it's best to let them be wrong and take action afterwards.

i wish they would teach people their rights and how to respectfully deal with law enforcement. there's no reason for shit like this to happen. i get the feeling that rich kids around the nation like to link themselves with whatever issue they can find....because being a social justice warrior is a hip thing to do. i dont think these rich fuckin kids (who have a better life than i ever had...not a complaint, just a fact) have any real sense of what social inequality really is...yet, you point a camera in their face and some of them seem to think they are fuckin Nelson Mandela and are experiencing injustice never experienced before and it tends to be over silly shit. it's pretty sad, really.

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Old 06-12-2015, 09:25 AM
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Re: Cop on Leave Pushing 15 Yo Girl to the Ground & Pulling Gun on Other Teenag

One good cop removed from the force.

People care about black lives still? These people gate crashed a pool and became violent towards the residents. They wouldn;t do that in Texas now would they? Guns make people not do shit like that.

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Old 06-13-2015, 03:41 PM
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Re: Cop on Leave Pushing 15 Yo Girl to the Ground & Pulling Gun on Other Teenag

police pooed the pool party

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