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Russia Abducts Estonian Officer; NATO and US Will Defend 

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  #21  
Old 09-07-2014, 10:16 PM
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Re: Russia Abducts Estonian Officer; NATO and US Will Defend

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Originally Posted by ralucagymnast View Post
Hmm...I hear what youre saying, but isnt the saying "those who dont learn from history...are destined to repeat it"; Putin just strolled in and took Crimea; the events of 1939 mustnt be repeated ever again.
It's not anywhere near that simple.

Russia doesn't have troops in Crimea...... Crimea overwhelmingly identifies itself as Russian, and in the vote to leave Ukraine well over 95% voted in favour of leaving. The Crimean parliament also declared independence from Ukraine.

Then there's the whole issue regarding the previous leadership in Ukraine, what happened in the coup, who financed the coup........ And who recognizes the current Ukrainian leadership as legitimate.

In any case it's not anywhere near so simple as the evil Putin invading Ukraine just because he can. It's just part of an ongoing conflict that has been developing for decades. And it's none of our business either

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  #22  
Old 09-07-2014, 10:18 PM
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Re: Russia Abducts Estonian Officer; NATO and US Will Defend

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Originally Posted by niknik View Post
I understand what you're saying. People often make this mistake in thinking. Because they don't think about the alternative. If America didn't form NATO and the UN. Or made treaties with countries to help protect their interests. There would be and would have been more wars. As many more countries would have been seeking nuclear capabilities. And building war machines. Which would start more conflicts than it would prevent. There would be literally hundreds of arms races all over the world. Also and most importantly, if America didn't fill that position of world police as you call it. Someone else would have.
I don't believe anyone has suggested we go to war over Ukraine. But Russia is breaking international laws. It's so easy for people to say stay out of it it doesn't concern us. But it's wrong of Russia to do, and we should stand against it. America should never stand silently while innocent people are being slaughtered. Nor should America ever stand silently while our enemies gain control of territory by force and threaten nations who cannot defend themselves.
Russia hasn't taken anything by force....... Crimea wanted out.

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  #23  
Old 09-08-2014, 10:55 AM
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Re: Russia Abducts Estonian Officer; NATO and US Will Defend

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Originally Posted by rob666 View Post
It's not anywhere near that simple.

Russia doesn't have troops in Crimea...... Crimea overwhelmingly identifies itself as Russian, and in the vote to leave Ukraine well over 95% voted in favour of leaving. The Crimean parliament also declared independence from Ukraine.

Then there's the whole issue regarding the previous leadership in Ukraine, what happened in the coup, who financed the coup........ And who recognizes the current Ukrainian leadership as legitimate.

In any case it's not anywhere near so simple as the evil Putin invading Ukraine just because he can. It's just part of an ongoing conflict that has been developing for decades. And it's none of our business either
The Russians have always viewed Ukraine as a centre for nationalism; goes right back to the days of Stalin. He engineered the Holomodor, which killed 10 million Ukrainians in 1932-33 by starvation caused by collectivization. The Ukrainians had their own culture and language; Stalin was appalled when he found out that Russian language wasnt being taught, and he saw the peasant farmers as a base for subversive and nationalistic activity. So youre right when you say its been brewing for decades. I know its not as simple as Putin just strolling in.

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  #24  
Old 09-08-2014, 02:40 PM
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Re: Russia Abducts Estonian Officer; NATO and US Will Defend

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Russia hasn't taken anything by force....... Crimea wanted out.
That's not true at all. If there wasn't any force than why were Russian forces in Crimea? Why did they surround Ukrainian military bases and take control of them?
Russia was strongly against Ukraine aligning itself with the west. And Russia conducted operations to destabilize the region. Russia was also strongly against Ukraine joining NATO.
This entire mess has Russian interference and aggression all over it.

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Old 09-08-2014, 02:57 PM
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Re: Russia Abducts Estonian Officer; NATO and US Will Defend

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Originally Posted by rob666 View Post
It's not anywhere near that simple.

Russia doesn't have troops in Crimea...... Crimea overwhelmingly identifies itself as Russian, and in the vote to leave Ukraine well over 95% voted in favour of leaving. The Crimean parliament also declared independence from Ukraine.

Then there's the whole issue regarding the previous leadership in Ukraine, what happened in the coup, who financed the coup........ And who recognizes the current Ukrainian leadership as legitimate.

In any case it's not anywhere near so simple as the evil Putin invading Ukraine just because he can. It's just part of an ongoing conflict that has been developing for decades. And it's none of our business either
There was absolutely Russian forces in Crimea. And absolutely Russia took control of a sovereign nations territory by force. A vote you mentioned is and was unconstitutional under Ukraine law. And was carried out by proRussian separatist with Russian support. In other words Russia can't go into another country and set up a vote. That's illegal.

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  #26  
Old 09-08-2014, 06:20 PM
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Re: Russia Abducts Estonian Officer; NATO and US Will Defend

Just look at how that all went down so fast and smoothly. As if Russia was carrying out something it had planned for. A Russian poll was released in Time Magazine showing 73% in Russia opposed action in Crimea. Even as Russia who's television networks are controlled by the Kremlin, have been running propaganda against Ukraine for years. Saying the conflict is the result of a American alliance with the nazis to weaken Russia. Which makes it pretty clear, Russia sees Ukraines moves to align with the west as weakening them. And wanted to stop it.
From Russian leaders handing out cash and lies to protesters in Ukraine to Putin putting critic's and protesters against him in jail and house arrest in Russia.
How anyone can believe anything coming out of the Kremlin is beyond me. It's common sense 101 to know nations with state run media can not be trusted.

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  #27  
Old 09-08-2014, 10:21 PM
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Re: Russia Abducts Estonian Officer; NATO and US Will Defend

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Originally Posted by niknik View Post
That's not true at all. If there wasn't any force than why were Russian forces in Crimea? Why did they surround Ukrainian military bases and take control of them?
Russia was strongly against Ukraine aligning itself with the west. And Russia conducted operations to destabilize the region. Russia was also strongly against Ukraine joining NATO.
This entire mess has Russian interference and aggression all over it.

The troops went in initially to protect a pro Russian area from the rest of the country that had just overthrown the pro Russian president. Right now the conflict is the Ukrainian forces against pro Russian rebels, and a whole bunch of mercenaries on both sides.

Of course Russia is going to do what it can to protect it's own interests, we do the exact same thing both financially and militarily.

None of this means that Putin has ambitions of conquering the world.

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  #28  
Old 09-08-2014, 10:26 PM
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Re: Russia Abducts Estonian Officer; NATO and US Will Defend

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Originally Posted by niknik View Post
Just look at how that all went down so fast and smoothly. As if Russia was carrying out something it had planned for. A Russian poll was released in Time Magazine showing 73% in Russia opposed action in Crimea. Even as Russia who's television networks are controlled by the Kremlin, have been running propaganda against Ukraine for years. Saying the conflict is the result of a American alliance with the nazis to weaken Russia. Which makes it pretty clear, Russia sees Ukraines moves to align with the west as weakening them. And wanted to stop it.
From Russian leaders handing out cash and lies to protesters in Ukraine to Putin putting critic's and protesters against him in jail and house arrest in Russia.
How anyone can believe anything coming out of the Kremlin is beyond me. It's common sense 101 to know nations with state run media can not be trusted.
How can Ukraine joining NATO not be taken as an aggressive move from Moscow's perspective? We saw how well soviet missiles in Cuba went......

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  #29  
Old 09-08-2014, 10:47 PM
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Re: Russia Abducts Estonian Officer; NATO and US Will Defend

On a tactical standpoint Russia would love to have Ukraine. It would lock down their naval defenses in the black sea.

And we all know how much they love their tanks, and subs-

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  #30  
Old 09-09-2014, 11:38 AM
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Re: Russia Abducts Estonian Officer; NATO and US Will Defend

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Originally Posted by rob666 View Post
The troops went in initially to protect a pro Russian area from the rest of the country that had just overthrown the pro Russian president. Right now the conflict is the Ukrainian forces against pro Russian rebels, and a whole bunch of mercenaries on both sides.

Of course Russia is going to do what it can to protect it's own interests, we do the exact same thing both financially and militarily.

None of this means that Putin has ambitions of conquering the world.
I don't think he wwants to conquer the world. I think he wants to restore the Soviet Union. And he saw Ukraine trying to align with the west and he wasn't having it. Also I don't believe for one second he moved troops in to protect Ethnic Russians. That was just his excuse to move in on the territory.

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