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Brzezinski: US Should Deploy Troop to Baltics 

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  #61  
Old 01-26-2015, 01:49 PM
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Re: Brzezinski: US Should Deploy Troop to Baltics

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Originally Posted by bob351 View Post
Its not nearly as chaotic as you are making it seem, its a rather straight forward conflict, two sides, pro russian and pro ukraine.

It is nothing like the middle east.
I used the Middle East comparison purely as a symbol of chaos. I know the politics are completely different, Im just talking about the confusion and madness which has become epidemic in these regions, politics and religon aside. The ordinary people couldnt give a fuck about politics and religious preferences and ideology clashes; they just want to live a normal life. Being able to buy food, to feed their children, have electricity, clean water,medicines, education, the basic tenets of human life, not have to live in basements of their apartments, you know, a basic standard of living where venturing out to buy essentials such as bread, milk, medicines doesnt involve running the gauntlet of fucking artillery shelling. Not knowing if you yourself will survive another day. And not knowing if you still have a home and family. Put yourself in that position, its almost totally incomprehensible to those onlookers isnt it? I lived under the Ceausescu regime; and believe me, it was fucking hard, but we managed, just about. It seemed we merely existed from one day to the next. Imagine that? Im sure you cant, and I wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy.

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  #62  
Old 01-26-2015, 09:42 PM
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Re: Brzezinski: US Should Deploy Troop to Baltics

Russia should invade North Korea.

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  #63  
Old 01-27-2015, 02:30 AM
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Re: Brzezinski: US Should Deploy Troop to Baltics

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Originally Posted by justfighter View Post

Listen to Steven...
He's an asshole...who the fuck cares what Steven thinks...

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  #64  
Old 01-27-2015, 12:17 PM
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Re: Brzezinski: US Should Deploy Troop to Baltics

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He's an asshole...who the fuck cares what Steven thinks...
RT
They are known for this. They'll grab a celebrity and put them on as if they're "experts".
Last week it was Oliver Stone.

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  #65  
Old 01-27-2015, 12:33 PM
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Re: Brzezinski: US Should Deploy Troop to Baltics

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Originally Posted by justfighter View Post
NO USA...not in europe...please....USA didnt win a single war in a century...russia has won EVERY war it entered...u will all die a hydrogen death stay out...
WW2 death count
USA:420,000
CCCP:21,800,000 to 28,000,000...
remember only reason d-day happend was to get to Berlin before Stalin...at that point war was lost for Germany...
I believe America won ww2. Russia would have lost to Germany if not for America. It wasn't Russian planes bombing German factories and supply lines. Much of Germany's big weapons systems and state of the art missile delivery systems were found and destroyed by British and American forces.
And even if you refuse to acknowledge that, America defeated Japan on it's own.
But to say America hasn't won a war is ridiculous. America defeated the Iraqi military in weeks. Twice.
But let's use perspective. No war since ww2 has America used it's full capabilities.

And look at the numbers. Russia got whooped in Afghanistan. They lost like 450 aircraft during that war, which is hilarious. America only lost a handful of aircraft to enemy fire during Afghan war. Not too mention Russia suffered 7 times as many casualties and America spent more time and had more control than Russia ever accomplished.

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  #66  
Old 01-27-2015, 01:26 PM
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Re: Brzezinski: US Should Deploy Troop to Baltics

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Originally Posted by niknik View Post
I believe America won ww2. Russia would have lost to Germany if not for America. It wasn't Russian planes bombing German factories and supply lines. Much of Germany's big weapons systems and state of the art missile delivery systems were found and destroyed by British and American forces.
And even if you refuse to acknowledge that, America defeated Japan on it's own.
But to say America hasn't won a war is ridiculous. America defeated the Iraqi military in weeks. Twice.
But let's use perspective. No war since ww2 has America used it's full capabilities.

And look at the numbers. Russia got whooped in Afghanistan. They lost like 450 aircraft during that war, which is hilarious. America only lost a handful of aircraft to enemy fire during Afghan war. Not too mention Russia suffered 7 times as many casualties and America spent more time and had more control than Russia ever accomplished.

You said it all...
iraq...well that was a sucess defeat army kill some english allies...let ISIS conquer it since it has no more army...about Afganistan,
have you ever heard of "STINGER-EFFECT"...let me help you with that
In late 1985, several groups, such as Free the Eagle, began arguing the CIA was not doing enough to support the Mujahideen in the Soviet-Afghan war. Michael Pillsbury, Vincent Cannistraro, and others put enormous bureaucratic pressure on the CIA to begin providing the Stinger to the rebels. The idea was controversial because up to that point, the CIA had been operating with the pretense that the United States was not involved in the war directly, for various reasons. All weapons supplied at that point were non-U.S. made weapons, like Type 56 rifles purchased from China,[10] and AK-47 and AKM AK derivatives purchased from Egypt.

The final say-so came down to President General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq of Pakistan, through whom the CIA had to pass all of its funding and weapons to the Mujahideen. President Zia constantly had to gauge how much he could "make the pot boil" in Afghanistan without provoking a Soviet invasion of his own country. According to George Crile III, U.S. congressman Charlie Wilson's relationship with Zia was instrumental in the final go-ahead for the Stinger introduction.[10]

Wilson and his associates at first viewed the Stinger as "just adding another component to the lethal mix we were building".[10] Their increasingly successful Afghanistan strategy, formed largely by Michael G. Vickers, was based on a broad mix of weapons, tactics, and logistics, not a 'silver bullet solution' of a single weapon. Furthermore the previous attempts to provide MANPADs to the Mujahideen, namely the SA7 and Blowpipe, hadn't worked very well.[10]

Engineer Ghaffar of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar's Hezb-i-Islami, brought down the first Hind gunship with a Stinger on September 25, 1986 near Jalalabad.[10][11][12] The Central Intelligence Agency eventually supplied nearly 500 Stingers (some sources claim 1,500–2,000) to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan as part of Operation Cyclone.[13] with the supply of 250 launchers.[14]

The impact of the Stinger on the outcome of the war is contested, particularly in the translation between the impact on the tactical/battlefield to the strategic level withdrawal, and the influence the first had on the second.[15] While Fort Leavenworth's Dr. Robert F. Baumann describes its impact on "Soviet tactical operations" as "unmistakable" in Compound warfare that fatal knot,[16][17] an opinion similarly supported by Yossef Bodansky's Sams in Afghanistan: assessing the impact published in a 1987 issue of Jane's Defence Weekly.[18][19] Soviet, and later, Russian, accounts give little significance to the Stinger for strategically ending the war.[13][20][21]

According to a 1993 US Air Defense Artillery publication, the Muhajideen gunners used the supplied Stingers to score approximately 269 total aircraft kills in about 340 engagements, a 79-percent kill ratio.[22] Which if accurate, would make it responsible for over half of the 451 Soviet aircraft losses in Afghanistan if they only engaged Soviet aircraft, however as the Afghan occupation was fought both by Soviet and Afghan government aircraft, a large number of kills inflicted by the Stinger was on aircraft operated by those of the Afghan government, who were increasingly sent on the more dangerous missions by the Soviets.[19] An analysis of the Stinger's role in the withdrawal of the Soviet Union, the statistics supporting the Stinger's unusually high kill ratio and the chronology leading up to the decision to deploy the weapon, was made in 1999.[19]

According to Crile, who includes information from Alexander Prokhanov, the Stinger was a "turning point".[10] Milt Bearden saw it as a "force multiplier" and morale booster.[10] Charlie Wilson, the congressman behind the United States' Operation Cyclone, described the first Stinger Mi-24 shootdowns in 1986 as one of the three crucial moments of his experience in the war, saying "we never really won a set piece battle before September 26, and then we never lost one afterwards".[23][24] He was given the first spent Stinger tube as a gift and kept it on his office wall.[10][24]

The last Stingers were supplied in 1988 after increasing reports of fighters selling them to Iran and thawing relations with Moscow.[12][25] After the 1989 Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, the U.S. attempted to buy back the Stinger missiles, with a $55 million program launched in 1990 to buy back around 300 missiles (US$183,300 each).[26] The U.S. government collected most of the Stingers it had delivered, but by 1996 around 600 were unaccounted for and some found their way into Croatia, Iran, Sri Lanka, Qatar and North Korea.[27][28] According to the CIA, already in August 1988 the U.S. had demanded from Qatar the return of Stinger missiles.[29] Wilson later told CBS he "lived in terror" that a civilian airliner would be shot down by a Stinger, but he did not have misgivings about having provided Stingers to defeat the Soviets.

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  #67  
Old 01-27-2015, 01:48 PM
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Re: Brzezinski: US Should Deploy Troop to Baltics

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Originally Posted by justfighter View Post
NO USA...not in europe...please....USA didnt win a single war in a century...russia has won EVERY war it entered...u will all die a hydrogen death stay out...
remember only reason d-day happend was to get to Berlin before Stalin...at that point war was lost for Germany...
What a load of caviar shit..

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  #68  
Old 01-27-2015, 02:52 PM
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Re: Brzezinski: US Should Deploy Troop to Baltics

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Originally Posted by niknik View Post
I believe America won ww2. Russia would have lost to Germany if not for America. It wasn't Russian planes bombing German factories and supply lines. Much of Germany's big weapons systems and state of the art missile delivery systems were found and destroyed by British and American forces.
And even if you refuse to acknowledge that, America defeated Japan on it's own.
But to say America hasn't won a war is ridiculous. America defeated the Iraqi military in weeks. Twice.
But let's use perspective. No war since ww2 has America used it's full capabilities.

And look at the numbers. Russia got whooped in Afghanistan. They lost like 450 aircraft during that war, which is hilarious. America only lost a handful of aircraft to enemy fire during Afghan war. Not too mention Russia suffered 7 times as many casualties and America spent more time and had more control than Russia ever accomplished.
Russia had germany beaten.


Americans have such a distorted view of world history. Not the fault of most though, as you only learn what bullshit they feed you in high school, the glorious american history of the rootin tootin greatest country in the world...


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  #69  
Old 01-27-2015, 05:30 PM
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Re: Brzezinski: US Should Deploy Troop to Baltics

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Originally Posted by justfighter View Post
You said it all...
iraq...well that was a sucess defeat army kill some english allies...let ISIS conquer it since it has no more army...about Afganistan,
have you ever heard of "STINGER-EFFECT"...let me help you with that
In late 1985, several groups, such as Free the Eagle, began arguing the CIA was not doing enough to support the Mujahideen in the Soviet-Afghan war. Michael Pillsbury, Vincent Cannistraro, and others put enormous bureaucratic pressure on the CIA to begin providing the Stinger to the rebels. The idea was controversial because up to that point, the CIA had been operating with the pretense that the United States was not involved in the war directly, for various reasons. All weapons supplied at that point were non-U.S. made weapons, like Type 56 rifles purchased from China,[10] and AK-47 and AKM AK derivatives purchased from Egypt.

The final say-so came down to President General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq of Pakistan, through whom the CIA had to pass all of its funding and weapons to the Mujahideen. President Zia constantly had to gauge how much he could "make the pot boil" in Afghanistan without provoking a Soviet invasion of his own country. According to George Crile III, U.S. congressman Charlie Wilson's relationship with Zia was instrumental in the final go-ahead for the Stinger introduction.[10]

Wilson and his associates at first viewed the Stinger as "just adding another component to the lethal mix we were building".[10] Their increasingly successful Afghanistan strategy, formed largely by Michael G. Vickers, was based on a broad mix of weapons, tactics, and logistics, not a 'silver bullet solution' of a single weapon. Furthermore the previous attempts to provide MANPADs to the Mujahideen, namely the SA7 and Blowpipe, hadn't worked very well.[10]

Engineer Ghaffar of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar's Hezb-i-Islami, brought down the first Hind gunship with a Stinger on September 25, 1986 near Jalalabad.[10][11][12] The Central Intelligence Agency eventually supplied nearly 500 Stingers (some sources claim 1,500–2,000) to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan as part of Operation Cyclone.[13] with the supply of 250 launchers.[14]

The impact of the Stinger on the outcome of the war is contested, particularly in the translation between the impact on the tactical/battlefield to the strategic level withdrawal, and the influence the first had on the second.[15] While Fort Leavenworth's Dr. Robert F. Baumann describes its impact on "Soviet tactical operations" as "unmistakable" in Compound warfare that fatal knot,[16][17] an opinion similarly supported by Yossef Bodansky's Sams in Afghanistan: assessing the impact published in a 1987 issue of Jane's Defence Weekly.[18][19] Soviet, and later, Russian, accounts give little significance to the Stinger for strategically ending the war.[13][20][21]

According to a 1993 US Air Defense Artillery publication, the Muhajideen gunners used the supplied Stingers to score approximately 269 total aircraft kills in about 340 engagements, a 79-percent kill ratio.[22] Which if accurate, would make it responsible for over half of the 451 Soviet aircraft losses in Afghanistan if they only engaged Soviet aircraft, however as the Afghan occupation was fought both by Soviet and Afghan government aircraft, a large number of kills inflicted by the Stinger was on aircraft operated by those of the Afghan government, who were increasingly sent on the more dangerous missions by the Soviets.[19] An analysis of the Stinger's role in the withdrawal of the Soviet Union, the statistics supporting the Stinger's unusually high kill ratio and the chronology leading up to the decision to deploy the weapon, was made in 1999.[19]

According to Crile, who includes information from Alexander Prokhanov, the Stinger was a "turning point".[10] Milt Bearden saw it as a "force multiplier" and morale booster.[10] Charlie Wilson, the congressman behind the United States' Operation Cyclone, described the first Stinger Mi-24 shootdowns in 1986 as one of the three crucial moments of his experience in the war, saying "we never really won a set piece battle before September 26, and then we never lost one afterwards".[23][24] He was given the first spent Stinger tube as a gift and kept it on his office wall.[10][24]

The last Stingers were supplied in 1988 after increasing reports of fighters selling them to Iran and thawing relations with Moscow.[12][25] After the 1989 Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, the U.S. attempted to buy back the Stinger missiles, with a $55 million program launched in 1990 to buy back around 300 missiles (US$183,300 each).[26] The U.S. government collected most of the Stingers it had delivered, but by 1996 around 600 were unaccounted for and some found their way into Croatia, Iran, Sri Lanka, Qatar and North Korea.[27][28] According to the CIA, already in August 1988 the U.S. had demanded from Qatar the return of Stinger missiles.[29] Wilson later told CBS he "lived in terror" that a civilian airliner would be shot down by a Stinger, but he did not have misgivings about having provided Stingers to defeat the Soviets.
I don't get your point. You said Russia had never been defeated in a war. Everyone knows they got pretty fucked up in Afghanistan. And they did a lot of awful things in Afghanistan, causing 35,000 civilian deaths in ONE years times. So ya, America helped. Doesn't change the fact Russia was defeated.
Which I might add, if America used the brutal and all out tactics used by Russia in Afghanistan in Vietnam. America would have completed the mission. But America takes extraordinary measures to avoid innocent deaths.
And let's not forget Korea. South Korea is a separate thriving nation today because America whooped the North.

But really it's unfair to compare wars. Because each conflict has different reasons for its conclusion, and higher or lower willingness to do what it takes to win.
Because in the end, if you really think America can't defeat Vietnam in war you have lost your mind.

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  #70  
Old 01-27-2015, 05:57 PM
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Re: Brzezinski: US Should Deploy Troop to Baltics

You whooped the north? Have you ever wondered why the war hasn't officially ended and there still is a north korea?

You dropped more bombs in vietnam than were dropped in all of ww2, not to mention the terrible chemicals causing insane damage years after the war, but you weren't trying... you couldnt defeat them, you tried, they won with superior tactics... same reason you failed in Iraq and Afghanistan...

You are delusional... but we already knew that.

Go parade around in your uniform singing the stars and stripes.

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