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  #41  
Old 06-20-2014, 03:54 PM
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Re: British Government Bans Creationism

Religious bullying started when it became a political power leverage, and currency became of relevance. Now the bullying is for fear of the social instability that could come with no "higher than man power"...Which to be honest is understandable. I myself (an atheist) don't even want to imagine what will become "acceptable" in a fully Godless, world.

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Old 06-20-2014, 04:02 PM
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Re: British Government Bans Creationism

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Originally Posted by TheVrist View Post
Religious bullying started when it became a political power leverage, and currency became of relevance. Now the bullying is for fear of the social instability that could come with no "higher than man power"...Which to be honest is understandable. I myself (an atheist) don't even want to imagine what will become "acceptable" in a fully Godless, world.
i think it's a bit like the legalization of marijuana... a lot of local people were horrified for years at the idea but once it was legal and the world didnt fall apart and turn to shit, then people calmed a bit and were able to see that it wasnt as horrifying as it seemed it could be.

to some degree, i feel religion can go through the same thing... it may seem horrifying but i think there is a good chance that it can be a very positive thing. also, im not saying that religion should be abolished... just that governments should be run in a secular manner and that the taboo against ridiculing or opposing religious ideas (like we do with people and their conspiracy theories) be lifted.

i dont think it's possible to get rid of religion completely unless you can get rid of the fear of death from every human on earth... which is impossible. perhaps through education, these fears can be progressively dropped over time but that has to be the people's choice and not something forced on them or made illegal. i will always defend a person's right to believe what they choose and to say how they feel without fear of legal consequences... i just want that protection and social acceptance for atheistic views as well as religious ones.

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  #43  
Old 06-20-2014, 04:22 PM
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Re: British Government Bans Creationism

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i think it's a bit like the legalization of marijuana... a lot of local people were horrified for years at the idea but once it was legal and the world didnt fall apart and turn to shit, then people calmed a bit and were able to see that it wasnt as horrifying as it seemed it could be.

to some degree, i feel religion can go through the same thing... it may seem horrifying but i think there is a good chance that it can be a very positive thing. also, im not saying that religion should be abolished... just that governments should be run in a secular manner and that the taboo against ridiculing or opposing religious ideas (like we do with people and their conspiracy theories) be lifted.

i dont think it's possible to get rid of religion completely unless you can get rid of the fear of death from every human on earth... which is impossible. perhaps through education, these fears can be progressively dropped over time but that has to be the people's choice and not something forced on them or made illegal. i will always defend a person's right to believe what they choose and to say how they feel without fear of legal consequences... i just want that protection and social acceptance for atheistic views as well as religious ones.

Well see, weed laws itself was a man made law.... and we seen how the fear of "government power" really controlled that? didn't work, millions and millions of people ignored the "man made power" and fully disregarded any threats of "fear tactics" the government instilled. Maybe if it was in the bible as blunt as DO NOT KILL, (lol God:Don't get High dude") , we could have shaved a few million of those that actually broke the laws enforced by man, but made by god... get what i mean? And I dont mean scribble it in there now, i mean it be something there from the start.

Now lets pretend there was never a bible, a god, any sort of established thing of that sort but still had the current laws and morality of today....... don't you think we would treat murder, rape, stealing, etc etc like smoking a bowl? Its something we want to do, ill-regardless to what fellow MAN's laws says... so we do it anyway, regardless to man made consequences? I mean people would have enough weed around them to land LIFE in prison, but still made sure they didn't break any of the heavier laws written, supposedly written before man.

Its like a subconscious thing as it is now... Most heavy laws we follow in life, we don't think of them as man made, but made by something bigger than that.

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  #44  
Old 06-20-2014, 04:39 PM
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Re: British Government Bans Creationism

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Originally Posted by TheVrist View Post
Well see, weed laws itself was a man made law.... and we seen how the fear of "government power" really controlled that? didn't work, millions and millions of people ignored the "man made power" and fully disregarded any threats of "fear tactics" the government instilled. Maybe if it was in the bible as blunt as DO NOT KILL, (lol God:Don't get High dude") , we could have shaved a few million of those that actually broke the laws enforced by man, but made by god... get what i mean? And I dont mean scribble it in there now, i mean it be something there from the start.

Now lets pretend there was never a bible, a god, any sort of established thing of that sort but still had the current laws and morality of today....... don't you think we would treat murder, rape, stealing, etc etc like smoking a bowl? Its something we want to do, ill-regardless to what fellow MAN's laws says... so we do it anyway, regardless to man made consequences? I mean people would have enough weed around them to land LIFE in prison, but still made sure they didn't break any of the heavier laws written, supposedly written before man.

Its like a subconscious thing as it is now... Most heavy laws we follow in life, we don't think of them as man made, but made by something bigger than that.
we dont have to pretend that the bible didnt exist to run this thought experiment.... instead, consider the Jews that supposedly wandered the desert with Moses. Are we to assume that they (and the rest of man kind) lived for years thinking it was OK to kill and steal.... only to be told later at the foot of Mt Sinai that, in fact, these things are wrong?

i think, what instead happened is that there were laws (human made ones) and people followed them... but more people followed when the lie of an all knowing judge came into play (the birth of religion) and even more followed when men (humans with penises... which is the way all ape social structures seem to work with few exceptions) claimed to have communications with these creatures.

i think if you were to erase the collective memories of the whole world and get rid of all the science and religious artifacts (and start all over), you would end up with new religions being formed and used as a means of control.

the idea that god's laws are stronger or more readily followed than human's laws only seems to work in the context of first world life...and only at times. you have to also consider that through theism, people have the ability to kill in the name of god. 'Divine Command Theory' says that killing is moral if god commands it... these are humans using religious control to justify immoral acts.

if you were to have a system with just human made laws (which is really what we have... humans are ultimately responsible for enforcing laws and punishments) and replace superstition and fear (god) with education (science, history, mathematics, civics) ... i feel you would have people that are better equipped with dealing with current life situations. i think the result you are talking about would happen if governments were to ban or try to abolish religion.

really though, how many killings are stopped because of the idea of god? not many, i'd think. especially in regards to the christian god...

..... you have to remember, even Jeffery Dhamer was a a born again christian after he was convicted of killing, so god forgives all no matter what crime is committed. god works in mercy, not justice. you can beg god for forgiveness and receive it. there was a meme that illustrated this nicely... it had a pic of god and said 'dont pray for a bike. i cant give you that. steal a bike and pray for forgiveness. that i can do'

the issue with theism is that it too is human made... and it has every fault humans do, including the immoral nature all humans have on some level. the idea that religion restrains people from acting poorly is, i feel, a myth.

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Old 06-20-2014, 04:51 PM
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Re: British Government Bans Creationism

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British Government Bans Creationism

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Old 06-20-2014, 04:58 PM
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Re: British Government Bans Creationism

You are still taking small numbers and making bigger relevance, with ancient times. i'm more on a speaking level of modern times, with new age social influences. and dahmer is hardly a rule of thumb of subconscious influence of a "none man made law"

And I never disputed theism man made (I feel strongly it is), however the same sheep that believe its god made now, and believed it for hundreds of years, are the same sheep that won't be able to sustain the same frame of mind with just man made rationale alone. I'm pretty sure every colony that has tried has failed to keep the sheep in check with just mortal guy at the helm, hence how we're we are now.

Even while mosses was up there trying to write law, the people at the bottom of the hill had to make a god for themselves to keep the sheep inline.

Fuuny part in the story, as much as the people trusted mosses, and his word, followed him all over the desert, HE ALONE couldn't come back down the hill as a MAN and say: hey dumb asses, youre worshiping a chunk of metal.... and the people follow his rationale and stop to follow him some more.. NO he had to get his god to beat up their god first..

Do you really think there is not people like this today? Take current god away, people find something new to worship...if the man (government) wants to keep control for sake of peace and progressive forward movement, they better have a bigger god than the one they just found.

Like i said few post back.. Weak minded, uncontrollable, and powerful knowledge don't go together. It brings chaos and disaster (forever living in sin) And lack of balance.

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Old 06-20-2014, 05:18 PM
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Re: British Government Bans Creationism

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You're right there. Canada are already way ahead of you too!

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  #48  
Old 06-20-2014, 05:18 PM
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Re: British Government Bans Creationism

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You are still taking small numbers and making bigger relevance, with ancient times. i'm more on a speaking level of modern times, with new age social influences. and dahmer is hardly a rule of thumb of subconscious influence of a "none man made law"

And I never disputed theism man made (I feel strongly it is), however the same sheep that believe its god made now, and believed it for hundreds of years, are the same sheep that won't be able to sustain the same frame of mind with just man made rationale alone. I'm pretty sure every colony that has tried has failed to keep the sheep in check with just mortal guy at the helm, hence how we're we are now.

Even while mosses was up there trying to write law, the people at the bottom of the hill had to make a god for themselves to keep the sheep inline.

Fuuny part in the story, as much as the people trusted mosses, and his word, followed him all over the desert, HE ALONE couldn't come back down the hill as a MAN and say: hey dumb asses, youre worshiping a chunk of metal.... and the people follow his rationale and stop to follow him some more.. NO he had to get his god to beat up their god first..

Do you really think there is not people like this today? Take current god away, people find something new to worship...if the man (government) wants to keep control for sake of peace and progressive forward movement, they better have a bigger god than the one they just found.

Like i said few post back.. Weak minded, uncontrollable, and powerful knowledge don't go together. It brings chaos and disaster (forever living in sin) And lack of balance.
like i said (well, Hitch said it for me) religion is their favorite toy. you cant take it away.

you are talking about the sudden disappearance of religion with no education to replace it. i dont think either of our views are likely to happen.

the religious aspect will always be there... but to have a fully secular government? well.... we have no idea how that would work since there hasnt been an example of one yet. any government has the potential for abuse and oppression... but i dont think there is any evidence at all to support the idea that religion keeps people in line or in any way forms their actual morals. as an example, most christian people can only recite a few of the first set of the ten commandments... and are shocked when they are reminded that there was a second set of commandments (Which include not boiling a baby goat in it's mother's milk...). When you ask them if they would be ok with selling their daughters into slavery, they overwhelmingly say that isnt moral... yet, at the same time that god gave moses the first ten commandments, god also gave moses law regarding the selling of daughters into slavery. if the bible is the source for morals, why is it filled with ideas modern society sees as immoral? the answer is because people dont honestly get their morals from religious sources.

the point is, the morals and social order people ascribe to religion is an illusion. people like to place their own morals on religious texts and claim they got it from there but that's not the case.

i think it would be fair to say that the time when 'god ruled' the heaviest, the world was at it's darkest in regards to human rights. as people pull away from religion and start placing their own interpretations of religious texts out there (which is what we are seeing in america... more and more believers are maintaining faith while rejecting organized religion), we start to see more progressive movements in civil rights. the more oppressive nations are ruled under theocracies (in the case of north korea, it's a theocracy that worships a man). it seems like all progressive first world nations are moving toward secularism and the nations with the most issues are theocracies. how can it be that the idea of being ruled by god is equivalent to more moral nations?

conversely, nations with state sponsored atheism are just as bad. they are not the answer to theocracies but are instead another form of extremism. secularism allows people to 'play with their religious toys' while requiring them to keep those toys out of government. this allows for people to get their morals from where ever they see fit while still keeping government solely a human endeavor. America was founded on this idea... that (as Jefferson put it) there should be a wall of separation between religion and government. religion should have no say as to how government functions and government should have no say on religious matters. the UK banning the teaching of creationism in public schools is a step in that direction.

that's the idea, anyway. i only use ancient peoples as an example of civilizations without Christianity and as a marker of social progression and it's relation to religious oppression.

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Old 06-20-2014, 05:27 PM
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Re: British Government Bans Creationism

I love meaningful and intelligent discourse. Please continue, you guys.

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Old 06-20-2014, 05:33 PM
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Re: British Government Bans Creationism

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I love meaningful and gratifying sexual intercourse. Please continue, you guys.
This thread really took off with a bang.

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